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Eat MEAT for your Mind, MOVE for your Body and be MINDFUL for your soul | AWAKEN YOUR SHAMAN

  • Josh Snyman 0:13

    For a change, I was on the receiving end of a conversation with Kelsey Buchalter, a good friend of mine from Cape Town, South Africa. And she interviewed me and just asked me about a whole bunch of things that I'm up to recently, this conversation was super raw, super vulnerable. And it expressed a deep truth that I believe I've been living for a very long time now, which is that you don't need another self improvement book or guru, or six month retreats in the Tibetan mountains, you know, listening to some dude chants, you don't even need me what you need is to listen to your own body to listen to the wisdom that's within you and for me, my truth in that is expressing that through three modalities, which is meat movement, and mindfulness. I really do believe that these three modalities are inherently human, and they make us who we are. So when you're eating meat for your mind, and you're moving for your body, and you've been mindful for your soul, you are essentially awakening that inner shaman, you are awakening that God within you. Before we begin today's conversation. Go follow Kelsey at @kelseybuchalter and go listen to our two episodes that we had previously together where it was mainly me asking Kelsey about a whole bunch of things that she's done in her life, and she has a wealth of knowledge to impart on to the wards. So that's why I really enjoyed those conversations. But without further ado, please enjoy this raw and vulnerable and beautiful conversation between myself and Kelsey.

    Unknown Speaker 1:48

    Just a welcome to the human theatre.

    Josh Snyman 1:51

    Thanks, Kelsey. I appreciate it. It's good to be on the show.

    Kelsey Buchalter 1:54

    Yeah, it's such a cool honour to have you here for Well, we've already done we've we have recorded two episodes already on your channel. So this is the third round three for us that round one on the human theatre. How does it feel like to be on the other end for a change?

    Josh Snyman 2:12

    If I'm being brutally honest, it feels very like a bit overwhelming for me because my mind the way it works, and like going on, because because I kind of know when you have an outline of questions you want to ask, it's easy, you know, that's the easy part. The hard part is actually articulating your own story to other people. But I think that is the most important part. You know, like your story is like, it's not unique. It's actually universal. So it's a good challenge for me, you know, and I I want to be patient with myself and show myself love because I might not always show up maybe in the way that I want to but I'm going to try my best in this case to just like articulate the things we're gonna get into as best as possible. So I apologise in advance of it's not always making sense, but hopefully it does. Hopefully, hopefully, I lead some way. I'm sure it will.

    Unknown Speaker 3:07

    No, I think it definitely will. I think it's very easy to be hard on ourselves. And I think even if you're the interviewer or the interviewee like you can still leave any situation being like, Oh, I could have said this. I should have said this, but I mean, I suppose that's, that's anything in life. I mean, you just think of an audition like, oh my gosh, I should have done that. But you can't. I know it's easier said than done, but you really cannot berate yourself and I think it will be perfect for whatever the moment in that moment is requiring. So again, thank you for coming on the show. It's really cool to interview you for a change. So when the world are you speaking to us from

    Josh Snyman 3:42

    so I'm currently in Cape Town, South Africa. Yeah, it's a recently moved back to Cape Town from Amsterdam. I spent two years living there. Obviously COVID happened I moved I moved like during the peak of the pandemic and stuff so it was very difficult for me to be honest. You know, there's that saying, like you go through the dark night of your soul sort of vibe like that's what it felt like for me it was extremely lonely and but at the same time, super, super beneficial in realising what I want to do in the world and how I want to grow and things like that. And I just realised Cape Town is where my people are to this stage of my life, and it has been crazy moving back here. I'm still waiting for half my stuff from Netherlands which is coming on a container ship. So I'm currently sitting on a garden chair. And everything just seems a little bit out of place, but I'm also trying not to be that person that I have been in the past seeing when this happens. I can do this and aches and I'll be happy and whatever. I'm actually just sinking into who I am right now. And I'm consciously trying to just be grateful for everything that I've got right now. And obviously I do feel like a fish that's swimming against the current because everyone's trying to leave South Africa and go to Amsterdam and now here I am moving back to Cape Town. So it feels very strange. It feels very weird, but at the same time it feels good. I'm happy. I would rather be struggling here right now then struggling you know overseas. We are worse.

    Unknown Speaker 5:23

    That's very interesting. I think it'll be you know, at our age, you know, mid to late 20s, early 30s, I suppose.

    Josh Snyman 5:32

    I think sounds very scary.

    Unknown Speaker 5:34

    We're not very I know. I think I'm just I'm just clumping a bit of age group.

    Josh Snyman 7:36

    It sounds like Home is where the heart is, like really is, is. It's where so we're gonna get into we're gonna get into some stuff today which is which I'm really excited to get into. But I like to think that almost everything we need in life is internal, it's instant. It's within our bodies within the wisdom of of our souls. But there is one thing there is one aspect that we need, otherwise we will perish. And for me that is community and that's external but that is something that we need. And it took me moving over and being super lonely and depressed and whatnot. To realise this, that you need the people you need certain people and environments to flourish. And for me that's where my community is right now in Cape Town. And I'm mustard and I miss the people that bring me joy and happiness in my life. And I never appreciated it as such a tool, obviously the pandemic and I'm sure I'm not alone. I'm not saying that I'm alone in this. I'm just expressing my universal story in this but for me, home is where your community is. And it's so so important that you have that community because it's so easy, especially in the world of self improvement and the world of biohacking and all this you know, stuff that I'm sure we know and love and get into and it's all very purposeful and it all plays a role but if you don't share the joys of your life with the people you love and your community and you're not expressing that love in many different ways and to me it's it's it's meaningless. That's That's my view of it, at least is that you have to share this experience of life with people that appreciate you for who you are, and, and hustling is cool and it's great and especially again our age 2627 Full on hustle. I feel like it's two polarities right now it's full on hustle culture where you are driven Gary Vee type, you know, just marketing yourself or whatever, or you're just going out and getting factory nights and you don't give a shit and that's your rebellion and so, so be it. You know what I'm saying? There's like those two extremes right now. But ultimately, it is the people that appreciate you appreciate your art, appreciate your your weirdness in the world and everything that you have to offer and that and that is part of like integration. That's part of healing. You know, it's not healing is not done in isolation. In fact, the biggest the biggest part of your healing is the grunt work is being with your community and Lady and being vulnerable, you know, letting them I don't know let's just say letting them say things about you that maybe you maybe find a bit awkward about yourself but it's they're expressing that to you and you taking that on and feeling it and feeling the sort of the pain behind it because you get triggered and being vulnerable in the face of your community. That makes you grow stronger and makes you become wiser and things like that. So it's so easy to again, live in isolation, which I've done many times, and it's my natural tendency is to go and do things by myself and and create by myself and whatnot. But I've now come to appreciate the importance of again, community this this little, just one vital nutrient that we need that that's outside of ourselves, you know,

    Unknown Speaker 11:22

    yeah, that have been seen exactly. The other. I mean, community is definitely a tenant of health. I mean, if you think back to our hunter gatherer ancestors, I mean, we evolved as a human species not alone. And yes, it is important to spend time and to be able to be okay with spending time alone. But it needs to be balanced out. So I'm hearing you say it needs to be there is always an I know a balance can be a very triggering word for people because it's like, there's no like definitive formula of like, this is balance, because that's also always changing at every stage of your life at every moment of the day that you're always requiring something different, like the only constant is change, but just as much as we need community and to be able to spend time with other people. So to do we need to balance that out with being okay and being at home and comfortable within ourselves. And I think you've brought up so many topics that we can, like dive deep into but specifically I really do appreciate you bring it to the floor of how important community is. And I think everyone can kind of attest to this because during COVID We were completely isolated from one another and I mean, thank goodness for the world that we live in where there were things like zoom and we chat and social media, but there is a bit of a dichotomy because even on social media, like yes, we're technically connected, but at the same time, we're actually the most disconnected we've ever been. Because I don't think I don't know if you want to laugh like I don't know if you want to share any of your thoughts on this, but there's definitely something different from like virtual communication to in person. Human, actual human connection.

    Josh Snyman 13:00

    Definitely. And I just want to add that when COVID hits, I was happy as a son I was. That was literally it was the happiest learning that some of the happiest moments of our life. I went on social media for three months. I focused on my creativity, I was finishing up varsity. I had my routine. I was so stoked at life. Like I didn't have to pretend like I could go out and go to the pub and be happy with small talk and shinny conversations like I literally I was just so happy because but that just showed that just brought to light also some things it's like, oh, okay, like you're very comfortable in the situation and and then I was sort of running away and it was a very fear based decision that led me to go to Amsterdam and and and discover new territories there. And I've got a great job. And I was working online. I was working on Zoom like eight hours a day and my whole life revolved around somebody else. But yeah, I just think that like you said that that virtual connection is definitely not where I'm happiest. I'm happiest when I'm I can feel somebody's energy their body and they and their and their soul and you know, and you look in someone's eyes and you just like you just literally enter this state of timelessness. And I live for those moments. And I pray and it made me appreciate them. It makes me appreciate them even more now. And it's funny I was I was chatting to somebody yesterday about how I was so depleted of that when I was in Amsterdam also during COVID and stuff and shooting the beginning parts or so the later parts was the beginning parts of it pretty fun when everybody was losing their shirts. I was finding myself but when I found myself so to speak, and then things started to like just unravel but more and I had to sort of go back into the community life a bit more. I I was so depleted of that. That now I'm sort of like trying to make up for it. So like I'm saying yes to everything on going. But like you said the balance is that I need to know myself well enough to know my body's wisdom that I do need these moments we I do cheat a bit and I do write and I do deep work without the distraction of my iPhone. Because that is truly like my deep chord what brings me the most joy is is those moments of actual isolation and reflection. But then also just not being afraid to be vulnerable again and going out and then and then sharing your ideas, your weirdness with the world you know, and again, it's like you said it is that it's that balance between you know, go back to hunter gatherer type vibe, coming back to community sharing food, being sacred and telling stories within going out into the wilderness by yourself and reflecting and doing that. So I like that the way you describe that. I think it's really cool. For you,

    Unknown Speaker 16:14

    I think I'm just trying to make things a bit more practical and actionable, or what does periods of self reflection look like for you like, how how does your self reflection practice look like? You're becoming more conscious.

    Josh Snyman 16:29

    That's a really good topic. So I think we're gonna get into like my the way I think about the world currently in the way I the way I want to express sort of a practical way people can live better you know, through health and happiness and meet movement, mindfulness, we will get into that. But if I think about it, that that's like mindfulness for me mindfulness is remembering who you are. Like, it's as simple as that. And the way you do that is through presence. So whether that's meditation, whether it's journaling, whether it's journeying with psychedelics, forest bathing, being in nature, whatever it is, but it's remembering who you are, and it's so easy with the proliferation of distractions in this modern world to forget who we are. So my favourite way of doing that is the like my favourite ways of sort of outlining but like I will wake up every day and I've got a remarkable tablet thing. Yeah, I would journal every day and I physically like that I physically enjoy the the aspect of writing things down. You know, I used to type a bit but I think writing is this like, it has a sacredness to it. And my handwriting is shit. Like you can ask people which I coached crosswords, and arrived on the board. Everyone lost my handwriting, so it's terrible. So most of the time, I can't even read what I'm writing if I go back, which is a bit embarrassing, but it's not about that. It's about just expressing your thoughts. On paper and seeing, seeing how crazy you your your thinking patterns are, and the things that you've been obsessing about. So when you write them down and adulterated and like in its raw form, you actually just see how crazy things can be in your mind. And it's it's it's just that it's just thoughts. It's just things you don't have to act on them always. But writing them down I feel like when I don't journal you know when you just feel a bit like club like your your annual ram your memory in your head is just it's it's obstructed and you just need to release that. So you defragments in your mind when you journal so that's like number one, and then I always meditate not up pretty much always meditate every day I use the waking up app by Sam Harris as a guide. Again, I'm not a big fan of gurus or guides and things like that. In fact, my whole philosophy is the anti guru. It's about awakening your inner shaman, your inner guide, but they are useful apps like waking up. And Sam Harris is a great mentor to me and I've found great joy in listening to his guidance. It's daily and just getting back into the present moment. I used to do something called priming by which Tony Robbins taught which is a more manifestation practice. Very powerful you use deep breaths deep force brace your nose and you punch your hands in the air for like 30 cons that sounds silly, but it's really powerful because you nasal breathing. And then you put your hand in your heart, and you close your eyes and you feel your heartbeats and like even now I can just feel my heartbeat and like, you just be grateful and you feel the blood rushing through your veins and things and then that's a manifestation practice and then you end that with three things that you want to happen and you envision that. But I have found in the past that that envisioning and manifestation a lot of a lot of things that are wanting to manifest have come true to a certain extent but it prevented me from really embracing the present and really letting the natural wonders of the world sort of unravel. So I'd much prefer not to just meditate and just be with what is instead of manifesting so much so that's that's something that's changed you know a lot to me is is not manifesting and rather than letting go and then be and then again maybe I've lost sight of your your original question. I hope I've answered that. So you said daily you also psychedelics I definitely don't use daily so. But that's another form of mindfulness that I'm very passionate about. And I think it has its benefits to the people if you do it right, and you're willing to let go, and then you're as much as possible, taking off my shoes and spending some time in nature and feeding the ground feeding the Earth. Again, people can create a whole brand on Earth thing and say that that's the be all and end all and again, we can get into what I think about that in the sort of self but if you just if you just are if we just think about it practically. When you take your shoes off and use stand on the earth and you feel the earth energy there is something that you can't deny that that is universal and inherent. I don't need science to back that up. And that's a lot of what I'm trying to get at here is that you can go read all the scientific papers in the world. They will all contradict each other. So you need to follow your body's wisdom and the universe's wisdom. So that's another thing that I love to do is just birthing is just going and feeding the earth feet, which I haven't done in a while which I should probably do. Maybe later when we have a writer.

    Unknown Speaker 21:55

    Yes, yes, Josh is coming over for O'Brien. Later we're very excited. Because also load shedding and at least we can Bri Gosh, you brought up so many things firstly with the writing I loved when you were speaking about how the effects of writing and journaling has on you. I was thinking oh my gosh, this is basically a detox. Like writing it out even speaking it out to a friend again, the importance of having community and other human beings around you. Just releasing it from your mind is such a form of detox otherwise it just stays stuck. And it's just ruminating in your head. I think that's that's quite powerful. And then I love this is this is powerful. This could be very controversial, but I know that manifestation is huge right now. But to be constantly in a future focused sort of state of mind and orientation. Is that not just an avoidance of sitting with you in the presence and I'm just playing devil's advocate because I also manifest and it's important to do so it's such a great tool and a very practical tool of setting goals and actually working towards those goals. But if you're constantly are manifesting this manifesting that like okay, that's all talk but like are you actually you know, sort of, you know, like you're in the presence

    Josh Snyman 23:09

    I will I will add that I do. I do have affirmations like to literally go to affirmations that operates in dawn that are close to my heart and I read every day, but I no longer actually do the whole envisioning of it's just there and it's like, it's like my preference. If it happens, it happens if it doesn't it doesn't but it's like a it's just a thing that um it's an anchor. It's an anchor that I'm off. But I no longer obsess about it the way I used to. Because there's lessons in that, you know, in and of itself and like you said, is a way to avoid certain emotions and feelings and yeah, it's it can be very powerful, but also very destructive. Manifesting manifesting. Yeah,

    Unknown Speaker 23:57

    I think as you brought up as well, it's like there's so much noise out there and to be able to have like the, the strong remembering and also, I mean, you spoke about, it's all about remembering who you are. But I would also add to that, that it's also about reconnecting and like honouring like it's all very well that you're conscious of maybe what you want in life and what your morals are and what your goals are, but actually reconnecting to that and then honouring whatever your aspirations are is is another thing. But I mean, just going back to there's so much noise out there, and I love how you have sort of worded and coined this phrase that I love. It's just awakening your inner Charmin. And I don't know if you want to maybe just riff a bit on like, awake what what does that mean? What does that look like? What like how, how does noise around us? Like what does that even mean? Like? I mean, I think it's very easy to get sucked up into so much and everything but yeah, just riff on awakening your inner Shaman.

    Josh Snyman 25:03

    Yes. So I know that is somebody that wrote write a book, like literally awakening your inner shaman and it has nothing to do that book. I literally came to this. So I like to say awakening your shaman, but in a is definitely part of it because it is your shaman but the best way I can describe this is that I really fundamentally I keep returning to this truth that inside of us that we have this guide and we have this inner knowing this inner shaman and for those that don't know shaman is somebody when you go on a psychedelic journey that leads you to the journey, and he's your guide or she's your guide, and you set an intention. But we are so it's so easy to attach ourselves to Gods and gurus and politicians and people in our lives when we want direction from them. We want an answer from them. The only problem with that is that you never trust your own body's wisdom and your own body's guide and your own body Shaman. And this can be very destructive because then when things do when things don't go as planned or the way that they've described it's so easy to fall back in old tendencies and old ways and things like that. And I mean you know a prime example which happened right recently was like Luther King, you know, be exposed for steroid use or whatever but, but so many people were like, confused or disappointed or like, because it's because they attach themselves to the sky. And they thought oh, if I just enrol, I will look like this dude. And everyone's like, no, that's not that's not what happens. But back to the the awakening your inner Charmin it. So during that compute COVID Again, this is why psychedelics have a place in my heart is that I use I use psychedelics previously in only party settings, and I've had some seriously fun times and I've had some seriously dangerous, dark moments with them, or revealing aspects of my life that would would would have never have particularly come to light unless I had indulged in them. But I decided that I wanted to go and experience the medicine, the plant medicine in a ceremonial setting, so I went for a San Pedro ceremony which is a cactus mescaline and it was a long trip last almost an entire day. It was very revealing to me but my God said that this would awaken this shamanic body. And it did it literally it literally showed me the shamanic body within me. And I was in lots of pain physically, emotionally, mentally, I was in lots of pain. If I go back for a second, I like to think that at the moment is like Tony Robbins, one of my like original mentors, mentors and gurus and somebody that I've always looked up to. He said that decisions or destiny decisions change your life. So if I were back to 2013 I was really fat, unhappy, overweight school kid that had no sport. I I had suicidal tendencies. Like literally I would cry myself to sleep most nights and I was just so unhappy with the way things were but people on the outside saw me as as very fun spontaneous person that said yes to everything, and made people laugh and that and that was cool. I mean, I humour humour is a big part of my personality. And I made a decision on New Year's 2013 goes 2014 with my metric year school, I decided that I no longer wanted to be this fat, overweight unhappy kid anymore. So I changed in a biological level. I literally made this decision. And that decision changed my life and that was like eight years ago. So without going into too much detail, one thing led to another as I read up, I started going low carb I started intermittent fasting I started running, searching all these things like nutrition was and the weights just fall off me and people literally like in in a six to eight months. I lost like 30 kilogrammes, 35 kilogrammes. So like 90 pounds. So I literally just transformed my biology overnight but that in and have it sort of came with its own destructive tendencies because then our overthrow I was overly worried about the way our looks and that just brought to light again, new things and new traumas in my life, which a lot of it was sourced from my difficulty with my father's a kid. So my mom and my dad divorced and I was really young. And my dad, I was never good enough for my dad, and he used to call me fat. And he used to, you know, essentially bully me and I was also bullied at school and it's very, very difficult for me and that that was brought to light when I lost all that weight and that and I felt the joys of people like giving me compliments and things like that. So when I went on that San Pedro ceremony and their journey in the middle of COVID. Prior to that, I had so much anger for my dad that I'd built up over the years. But during that ceremony, we came together and we locked heads and I felt this forgiveness because I saw his pain as a child. I literally saw his pain that he passed down from his father to me. And I felt this ancestral lineage, this ancestral pain that had been passed passed on generations generation. So we locked heads. And I saw my ancestors dancing around us and I saw them in union with us like celebrating this forgiveness. And it had nothing like my dad wasn't even there that just shows you it like it like he wasn't even there. But from that moment of forgiveness, it brought to light so much so again, going back to that decision, decision, one was me losing all that weight, and then things just transgress from their decision to was again during COVID and after the ceremony that I'm going to become the best creative I can be. So I started really focusing on my creative work, my art, my writing, my brand, things like that, my podcasts and whatnot. So that was decision two for me now like recently, decision three is really awakening this shaman within me. And I think as a modern man, there's so much there's so much. There's a lot of pressure out there. And I think for me now, it's about when I go on Instagram or whatever I just see people shouting each other. I just see studies being shown especially with like, I know that we are in very similar wrongs. You know, I just see studies being thrown at each other. Everyone's saying you must just do this get sunlight, whatever eaters eat that eat that. It's like everyone's is living in this echo chamber and they're just shouting at each other. And it's the signal is not leaving the bubble that we in, you know, because the average person at home doesn't really give a shit about you know, the biohacking and whatnot they just they just need something a concept to to work with. That's easy, but they also needs to understand that they they can heal themselves in a very easy way doesn't need to be complicated. You know, I know you've mentioned many times before, it doesn't need to be hard. And I realise I'm speaking all over the place now. So I'm trying to like rein my own mind back into the conversation itself. But it doesn't need to be hard. You know, it really doesn't. Because again, if I go back to the decision I made, I didn't have an attrition coach with me or II one. It literally came from the universe like I literally sat there 2030 New Years there's an 18 year old Josh fats he's a bit drunk and hungover. I just looked over. My friends. Pardon me, we had a damn Hartebeespoort inside Africa. And I just asked the universe for help. I was like, I really need help, like, I need help. I want to change and that's important too. That people need to understand that I'm not for everyone. You're not for everyone. I'm for the person, um, for the, for the that Josh and for those people that really wants to change, but they just kind of don't know how and or they may be using the wrong strategy, because that's important. Because not to go into a big vegan debate now, but a lot of vegans have such good intentions, they want to be healthy, they want to help the environment.

    But that's not necessarily the right strategy. And we know that because I see you are getting sicker and you're getting you're putting on weights, your bones are struggling, but you've latched on to this concept of veganism, and it's so strong that it can destroy you. You've heard him saying, and it's this external pursuits. Whereas if we listen to your body's wisdom, you know, deep down as vegan, you're craving a beautiful ribeye, juicy ribeye, because your body's wisdom knows that's what it needs. You know, you're not a herbivore, you're an omnivore. And boring more side, on the carnivore side, but that's the body's wisdom, you know, so my body's wisdom, although, all the way back in 2013 knew what I needed to do. But I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that. I'm perfect because in those preceding years, those years after that, again, like destructive tendencies took over, but it was only until I saw the the little little T trauma that had been passed on to me from from my father and there's no blame there at all. It's just like he was doing the best he could. And then also had a mom who was anorexic that smoked 40 boxes cigarettes a day, who by the way, now is like fully almost 90% carnivore doesn't smoke any more. She does CrossFit. She's 64. Wow. So yeah, there's so much like, I know there's so much that I'm bringing to the table, but the basic premise is is that you have this inner guide and this inner knowing and I know people listen to that inner guide, they will know what to do. They really will but it's it's very difficult when you've got so much there's so much noise.

    Unknown Speaker 35:53

    Yeah. Yeah, you've brought up so many amazing topics. But like I mean, on a very, very, very high level. Essentially, most of the forefathers of psychology. Say that essentially every and all mental quote unquote illness stems from an internal dichotomy. And I think your phrase awakening your shaman awakening specifically like the inner shaman because we all have our inner Shaman. We all have this innate ability to heal ourselves. It all stems from actually just being true to yourself. And I think as cliche as it sounds, that's what everyone's journey on this planet, especially this modern world that we are living in. This is I think, the crux of everything really because we are all striving we all know that at the end of following your heart and honouring your heart and being authentic. That is your freedom, like period. And I just want to thank you for sharing a bit of your backstory. I mean, I that's usually my first question, but we just got carried away, but I really appreciate Yeah, just thank you for sharing that with us. And I just wanted to highlight like you never know what the fuck is happening behind closed doors. You never know. I mean, recently the most like, Twitch is still like Dev is devastating me. I don't know if you heard about twitch. Committing suicide.

    Josh Snyman 37:12

    Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

    Unknown Speaker 37:15

    I mean, I'm just also thinking of Robin Williams. And you brought about you know, how your mask was also comedy like everyone is battling in their own way. We all have our own struggles. We are all going through this thing called life and I just want to highlight like, Be kind. Be kind. Another point that I really want to highlight, in order to be kind of more tolerant of people like I've noticed this within my own self is that the more that I have become more self actualized and more self conscious and more self aware. The greater tolerance I have for other people and you highlighted that with your dad, the more that you became more and more in tune with your body, you were actually able to see your dad from whence from whence he came, you know, like he's everyone behaves. There's always a reason why someone's behaving this way as a root cause for why someone's behaving the way they are, why someone's seeing the words that they are seeing and when you can understand that basic premise and that basic principle, you ultimately build greater tolerance and ultimately greater love for other people, even if they have caused you trauma. So that's another powerful point that I just wanted to highlight. And then one more thing just before I forget, is, you know, we are both very much involved in the nutrition health wellness space, and it's very easy to get sucked in. And it's also very easy to use the fact that we're in the health and wellness space to be like, Oh, I'm doing good. For myself, my party. I'm like, How can any of this be bad? Like how can too much of researching this and too much of listening to this person is too much of exercising, for example, like how can this be bad because it's all under the realm of health and wellness like that's a bit of a mosque. That's technically like, and I found myself going there as well. Like all this biohacking all these things like it's kind of just another band aid, and you're not really getting to the root cause and I think how your how awakening your inner shaman is again, like another anchor that you can just keep going back to and be able to find that balance because it's very easy to get sucked into that echo chamber very, very easy. And I mean, we're just speaking specifically of like health and wellness space, but I mean, I think any industry any space like too much of anything is not necessarily a good, a good thing. I mean, even if it's eating healthy and exercising that those are two very important things to optimise your health, but like, there's also too much of doing it like orthorexia, and something that I've dealt with as well.

    Josh Snyman 39:51

    And I just want to add that something I've been thinking about recently that's so true. If you think about these concepts, concentric circles I'm probably going to butcher this now. But like in the world of filmmaking and photography, which is like my full time job, they say that if you on time a good person to work with and you deliver. Those are the three concentric circles if you hit two of those, you get like people so if you on time and you're nice person to work with but your work isn't necessarily great. People will still want to work with you because you're on time and you're a nice person so you get the idea, right? I think about the same things in the health and wellness space is that if your eating habits and your exercise habits are so rigid, that they don't allow you to go to a rock music market, which is this market and catering people market with your friends and enjoy a chocolate croissants every now and again because you so rigid then something is not right there. Do you know I'm saying if if you go there by yourself and you buy a fire pies and take them home and eat them by yourself, that's destructive but if you go if you go with your community and with the people you love and you enjoy being with up, it's going to be good for you. It's like the stuff filling a portion of those concentric circles that's making up this experience of being human. Do you know what I'm saying? So, because what I'm saying is I've done that I've, I've literally in the past I've literally said no to going out with friends, but I will go to the same market. Go buy food for my cheat day. Take it home, eat it by myself, feel safe, feel sick, watch a movie, wake up and be Oh, it's the next day so I'm just going to now stay in a foster state and I'm going to run and I'm going to make up for it. So I know that's a lot to take in. But what I'm saying is is that yes, the it's these things you got to think about as an inner Charmin that make up who you are and no matter how much you try and nothing is going to be perfect you're not going to get all the levers rights you know I feel like everyone's trying to find that moment we all the law knobs lineup and you know, the baseline of your life is just a wow, amazing but it's not going to be like that. You've got to accept that there is just things that are outside your control, do the best you can with what you have. And you've got to let go every now and again. You've got to let go of these expectations you have of yourself and let go of, you know wanting to look a certain way all the time or whatever because it's just not feasible for the most part so yeah,

    Unknown Speaker 42:29

    I couldn't agree and agree more. I'm trying to think so many questions, and now they're just like left my might.

    Josh Snyman 42:43

    So it's always nice to

    Unknown Speaker 42:47

    see we're just being real right now. We're just being real and on the rigidity thing on the rigidity thing. I wrote it down and now there's so many notes. I can't even see my own handwriting. Um, yeah, I mean, I've loved the rigidity thing as well. And sometimes it's even more important to go out and be social and this is what I wanted to this is what I wanted to speak about. So let's say you bought the concept of, quote unquote cheat day and I think I don't know how I feel about I don't know how I feel about a cheat day, like calling it a cheat day because ultimately you're labelling it as a bad thing. But just very, very briefly, like if you're like, I mean yeah, so as I'm speaking about rigidity, like I also have and sometimes still struggle with this, like you know, cancelling arrangements because now I need to get this workout in or, you know, like just being a bit more strict and I can't eat that food because it's got that on this or whatever. But in the context, and we're bringing community again in the context of like a community and a social gathering, which again, community and being social it are like essential fundamental pillars of health. You could like eat a piece of chocolate cake, but if you're in a sit in a setting with people around you, people who you love, people who just uplift you and it's just a calm parasympathetic state. That choc piece of chocolate cake is not actually going to be digested pretty well. In your body. But if you're sitting there, having this piece of chocolate cake, but now ruminating and obsessing and being anxious about it, that's not really going to be digested very well in your body, and it's probably going to cause even more stress. So it goes back to being self aware and having that internal narrative that building that up developing that in that within yourself to get you through these hard times where you may feel triggered or anxious, but like if you're eating anything, regardless of what it is, if you're eating in a sympathetic state where you're completely stressed out of your mind, you're fearful or whatever, like your digestion basically shuts down because when you're running away from a tiger, the last thing your body's going to do is going to like optimise for digestion. And what I mean as opposed to like when you are eating in a calm social space, like your your body is in a you know in a parasympathetic state, so the opposite of stress, the opposite of sympathetic state, and your body will actually be able to optimise each and every one of those nutrients that you're eating. And just with you know, I kind of wish that I never got my first gym contract because as you mentioned in your own health journey, like the minute you started to become conscious of exercising and changing your diet like you get stuck on that hamster wheel. But I feel like part of the process. I mean, I'm great. I mean, yeah, anorexia or any eating disorder is not something that I wish upon my worst enemy. But part of that journey is it's almost like you go from one extreme to the other extreme, but now it's all about trying to find that balance again. And also like I think the biggest thing for me where I am at right now in my recovery is like, what you brought about right in the beginning is that sense of like home, like I don't need anyone or anything external for myself, I shouldn't need that as validation for myself. And you also brought about this, like getting stuck on ideas of where you should be what you should look like, all the things and I would love to extend that into the floor of like the dating world. Because, like, it's so easy to meet someone but then get completely stuck in that idea of them. When in actual fact, you haven't really stopped and considered what actually genuinely how does this person make me feel? Because it's very easy to get stuck in the idea of someone and like the aesthetic that they'll bring and the pictures you could take and like the idea of the relationship that you could possibly get, but I have come short many a time where actually this person if I if I'm honest with myself, and it's very hard to be honest with yourself sometimes like it's not actually what I really want.

    Josh Snyman 46:52

    Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I really enjoy that. And to be honest, like that, that is one of still one of my biggest, like, pain points is dating per se and been on many dates where I've just, like, again, you know, you are the fantasise about the perfect life or you are just like no, like what like this, they don't fit into my perfect little, like bubble that I've created for myself through again, through like intense reflection and manifesting, you know, not letting things just be and discovering and, and, yeah, that that is certainly something that quote, unquote, I haven't mastered so I don't have much experience on talking about that, but for me, it is. It's something that you have to like just let it be you have to you have to let the wonder of somebody else like you said somebody else's presence. Just inform your being is like, how does this person make me feel? You know, do they do they make me feel like I'm at home? If so cheesy, like, 90% of the way there? I'd say yeah, no. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yes.

    Unknown Speaker 48:14

    That's very important. I mean, any relationship if it's romantic or not really, like not romantic. There is, you know, this element of sacrifice and it always will be and I think, as you mentioned earlier, and I've also spoken about a lot, it shouldn't feel forced, it shouldn't feel hard. Not that you know, doing hard things and challenging yourself is not important. Of course, it's important that like, in a general sense of things in life should feel effortless, and live I think good. Life feels effortless when you have when you are authentic to yourself and not trying to force yourself into you know, a circle if you are a square type of thing, and I think that's where awakening your inner Charmin comes into light as such an anchor for every aspect and every will keep bumping the microphone, every aspect every situation in life. If you can have that consciousness in within yourself, you can like move forward with that. And I love how, you know along that you also speak a lot about meat move mindfulness, and he did speak about I mean, essentially consciousness mindfulness was one in the same Yes. Yeah, please elaborate again, for all of us. Meat moves mindfulness. What does that mean?

    Josh Snyman 49:21

    Yeah, to be honest with you again, this just came to me like literally through the universe and through like, hours and hours, especially during the COVID period of just writing stuff and tinkering and and but, you know, if this is not like the 19 ends of half let me just outline that like for anybody that knows about the Vikings. I know this is just the way I like to think about health and happiness. And I know that sounds like a big statement. You can take a supporter health and happiness but what I believe is that if you have one without the other, it doesn't make any sense. So if you have health and no happiness, what the fuck is the point you know, if you have all the happiness and no health, I don't think that's going to happen either. Because then you won't be able to do anything with happiness. You just going to be this person in a wheelchair that's like Yeah, I suppose Ronda just imparting wisdom on the world. But anyway, that's something else that I'm thinking about there. But so for me meat. If we learn everything about meat for your mind, you know, move for your body and be mindful for your soul. So that's Mind Body Soul. And I've just broken it down and this isn't this is not new. This is just a different way of expressing the same thing that's been said. For millennia. Even awakening your shaman your inner shaman, that it's not mine, I don't own that concept. It's it's it's something that has just been passed down from book, two book, Buddha Torah, Jesus was just a different way of expressing the same thing. But essentially, the for me, the way to awaken your inner shaman is first and foremost. Meats is we cannot deny it's an ancestrally aligned food source, you know, it has to make up majority of your calories and wherever you fit on the scale. Again, I'm not saying whether you're carnivore because you're healing from decades of autoimmune issues where you're eating no plans, or whether you're just a full on omnivore doesn't matter like meat is going to make up most of your calories. And that's going to optimise your health in the best way possible. Because I've seen the way I got to this, I went, one of my second psychedelic journeys was in Netherlands at this beautiful place called the nature tempo. It was was so beautiful it was it was a mushroom ceremony. There was a god they that just looked so frail and so just so not healthy and the first thing that popped in my head was, oh my gosh, this guy, this guy doesn't need a psychedelic ceremony right now this guy just needs a simple intervention of ancestral land, food, he just needs some good nutrition. He looked like frail and hairy was like trying to find himself beside the eggs. I'm like, No, that shouldn't be your first intervention. Like, you don't say like there was something in that and prior to that on the bus that on the way there on the bus, there was this overweight lady. So funny. I was sitting in the in the bus, overweight lady whips out this big ol stinky broccoli salad, and I nearly vomited. And nearly fucking vomited. And I was thinking to myself, like, again, strategy like, shame this lady clearly she's eating a broccoli salad on a bus. She wants to be healthier, but the strategy is just clearly not the I mean, that's not how that is not the most nutritious, nutritional nutritionally dense thing you could eat. And the funny thing is everyone probably like wouldn't bat an eye but if I will put my steak and eggs people be like, What the fuck are you doing like you you? What are you doing? That's not healthy. So again, meet like should make the foundation and we can maybe get into later but I'm building this like section on my website, this members only section where you can go on it's not that difficult, but you can go on you sign up as a member and I've sort of break down what I think about meats you know, meat for your mind. But the overarching premise is that when you eat ancestral land, quality meat based products, you are feeding your mind you know, I feel most calm and most at home and I feel like my personality comes out and shines the moist and I feel more present and grounded when I am eating good food, and I'm eating mostly meat. And within that if I just maybe just break that down further, which is all like in the section that I'm building as a resource because I no longer want to be that person. That's just shouting in to echo chamber and Instagram and sharing should I'm actually just sick of it. Like, I feel like I'm not achieving anything. I feel like I'm achieving more by building something on my website, think of it as a book that just gets better over time. Like it's this book that just gets better and better over time. But anyway, carbs. It's so nuanced and so bespoke, you know, like some people like a dad at home with three kids with pre diabetes. The last thing he needs is carbs, you know, of any sorts if you ask me. Got to Bailey doesn't need that. She's somebody who's very active, you can probably see a visibly ROI of your abs. Carbs is probably gonna be fine for you. And I say carbs, I mean like, you know, like pulsated Hafid carb sources you know, well cooked dried white raw sweet potato, berries, fruit, things like that. Yeah, and then within that, again, if you think about your inner shaman, you might eat something and you might not feel great. Then you need to listen to your body and say, Okay, maybe that was not for me now. Maybe I'm not ready. Maybe it's the carbs are going to come at another time. But again, the overarching theme is you know, eating mostly meat and basing every single meal you have around an animal based source of food.

    Unknown Speaker 55:22

    Yeah. So on that just a few technical questions like buy meats. Just to clarify, it's not necessarily like it's any animal protein.

    Josh Snyman 55:31

    Yeah, right. So again, eggs, fish. You know, red meats, chicken pork in it. Yeah, go for it.

    Unknown Speaker 55:40

    That just because those sources are bioavailable sources of nutrients and protein because if you zoom out completely we are made up of protein and fat in our bodies and our bodies require essential amino acids and essential fatty acids essential because we cannot produce them endogenously. So I just want to clarify this as the technical premise of why you are espousing. And I also espouse this just for mental health. reasons alone to incorporate animal foods and animal products.

    Josh Snyman 56:14

    Yes. Yeah, that's, that's a very good point. And so you're like, again, it's in my head and I'm trying to like, describe it, but that's a really good point is that any animal if it comes from an animal based source there is a higher likelihood that it is going to benefit you in some way shape or form because we've lost touch with that. And most products these days are plant based. We are on a plant based diet at the moment with metres become this vilified aspect of food that we shouldn't really eat. But, yeah, you want to add to that. So again, and for me, it is about keeping it as simple as possible. I when I moved over to Amsterdam, I didn't have a lot of money. So I literally lived off of McDonald's burger patties and Burger King for a while. The only difference is, is that the same people can go to the same restaurants and eat there for a year and have two separate results. The one person's ordering mostly meat, he say no to the buns and the vegetable, vegetable seed oil fraud fries, another person is ordering anything and everything and getting addicted to it but they will have completely different results but they're going to the same restaurant, like so do the best you can with what you have, you know a lot of people asked me and especially you know, my background, coming from biohacking and things like that and virtue signalling and saying oh, you only have to buy grass fed organic. I don't I don't subscribe to that dogma anymore. You do the best you can is what you got. So that means living off of ground beef. That's just from picking pay local supermarkets with Africa or buying the cheapest eggs you can find it's still going to be better. That's still going to be better than snacking on Oreos, or bagels. Or mice or energies. It's so going to be better. The cheapest animal based foods are still going to be better for you than most of the shit on the shelves. Because the community the echo chamber that we live in and I'm fully aware of it and I always bring it up because I'm aware of it is that there's this sort of like idea that if you're not doing that and you're not buying you know liver capsules and eating organs and stuff like that, that that you're not healthy and if you're not buying the base thing you not be healthy and I just think that couldn't be further from the truth it it cuts off so much of the people that can benefit from it. It really does. So, yeah, I sort of lost my track there but you get the idea that like needs makes up the foundation of who we are as a species. Yeah.

    Unknown Speaker 58:58

    I was gonna say I was gonna say like our species appropriate diet. We are omnivores, like a cat is an obligate carnivore. If they are not fed their diet that their physiology is expected they are going to get sick and seem to realise exactly the same, the same. The same applies with us. And I'm in the camp of I think maybe I need to just do a dedicated separate podcast of what you know, Whole Foods and just diet wise. So stay tuned for that. But yeah, essentially, if it doesn't have an ingredient list, like and if it came naturally from nature, but I mean, there's so much nuance, I mean yeah, that's for another podcast for food for food, peace. So the meat

    Josh Snyman 59:38

    and then movement so meat Yeah. So the meat is for the mind and then movement for the body. So movements is anything that honours your sacred animal flesh so for me, it's any activity that like thrusts you into this flow state it an activity that makes you sweat challenges you physically and this is inherently human like move to move is to be human like to not move is to die. And wither and suffer the perils of whatever comes from being stagnant. And you know, if you look at nature, something is either growing or dying, there is no in between. So, movement is that and this can be anything this can be walking, this can be yoga, this can be crosswords, this can be called plunging. There's so much there. But again, it's just this concept like move for your body. So you've now got the meat pod rights. Cool. What's next? Now we're moving now we're doing something and it's again it's so bespoke. I don't like to prescribe to people too much on this, but I will say that, like lifting weights or lifting something heavy has to be in the some way, you know, once a week or two or three times a week. You can't just walk all the time like you can and that's okay but like we as a species we most likely involve moving like a bit of heavy logs every now and again for fire or something like that, you know, like there's just certain things that then make up movement that I think you have to think about and your your inner guard your inner shaman knows that you have to do but that for me encapsulates movements and and some of my favourite forms. Mark personally. CrossFit. I'm a huge fan of CrossFit just because of the variety of exercises you do lifting heavy weights, and what I love about is like the scalable nature of it so you can come in no matter who you are, you will do something that day. So if you can't do a muscle up like some of the people can do, you can't do a heavy team injure. We will either take the weight down we'll make you do a ring row. We will you will do something and you will do a workout and you will feel great afterwards. So I love the variety aspect of CrossFit. But I also like the like stretching you know, that's a part of movements. That's that's challenging your body in a physical way. It's not important. Yeah, it's not. It's not something that comes naturally to me which is why I enjoy genius is challenging me physically. And it puts me into a bit of a flow state because when I am stretching, and I'm doing my go wide everyday, which is this app for like specifically for CrossFitters that do stretches and things like that. I'm not thinking about, you know, a conversation out of somebody that maybe didn't go well. I'm completely and utterly involved in my body's wisdom and realising oh wait, you know, you are in the moment now it's it's not as easy as you think. And then like cold shot I take pretty much arctic cold shot. I literally don't shower in in the heat anymore. I literally only take cold showers. Which is weird to think about now but cold showers and jumping in the ocean when I can. Because I'm a big fan of Wim Hof and his teachings and a lot of that I've gathered from him. But when you expose yourself to the cold, he likes to describe it as you are activating this like reptilian brain or this this lizard brain but for me again, it goes back to the inner Charmin. You are purposefully putting yourself under physical stress in order to be more resilient in the modern world and you have to because the body mind are not separate the allow that to embody mind and there's no there's no hyphen in there when I describe it. Now, I used to and I used to see the contradiction in that but its body mind because if you physically can show up in a way that that you that you're proud of them you can do things that most people can't do. That will mean Slee have an effect on things that maybe harmed in the past. So your physical body is so sacred and it's it's very likely the real the one real thing you have you know just to be able to touch your body and feel it and like I said, feel your heartbeat. I'm getting way off track now but like your heart is so powerful and it affects every it affects your brain in more ways than you think. So if you are feeling overwhelmed, and you do feel your heart racing, it's more likely just asking for that for attention. So another way I like to move is just take my hand and I put it on my heart and I close my eyes and I actually feel my heart racing and my heart beating. And it's that feeling that's so important that people forget it's you've got to feel everything. It's about feeling things and more. That's the paradox there is that people think that that you need to be hard and resilient and run away from things because you don't want to get hurt or whatever. But the beauty is, is with feeling it's feeling your hearts and feeling the pressure and anxiety and not being able to breathe and sinking into that uncomfortableness because when you do. Your body's wisdom is activated and you get thrust into this into this open awareness. And beautiful beautiful things emerge from that. So I know I know when I was going off and it was huge tangent there but you get the idea is like for your body.

    Unknown Speaker 1:05:20

    Yeah. 100% I mean, I'll again, just as our physiology is expect Whole Foods because food is actually just information for our bodies. So to to ask physiologies expect and require movement and I just think I often firstly, I actually fall asleep with my hand on my heart and one hand on my belly. It really does connect me back to myself. And I think I also really speak about this a lot with people who are struggling with anxiety or depression. It's like, bring yourself back to Earth by literally just I mean self massage, soft touch is so important. But on the movement piece, another sort of thing that I often tell people that's been helpful for me is like when you think about being stuck, like if you're in an emotional place where you're stuck in life, like bringing it to the literal sense, like, if you're stuck, you move back move forward. So that's I mean, yeah, as just highlights again, the importance of like, our bodies expecting and requiring, requiring movements. So I really, really love that.

    Josh Snyman 1:06:25

    Thank you. Yeah. And finally, obviously, I'll touch on a bit but like mindfulness, mindfulness for the soul, and for me, mindfulness is this meta thread. It's like this cognition is this it's the thing that holds everything together. So so you can have the meats and do that you can do the movements and whatever. But if you're not mindful if you're not present, and you don't have the certain things that you require, as a human because of our consciousness, because it was the very way we've evolved it but also not, it won't mean like if things work, your trauma, your past traumas will play themselves out. And you might get every single other aspect of your life right but if you're not mindful, and you're not aware of things that are happening, and that's all it is, it's just awareness and it's bespoke, it's it's individuals, so different people will have different things that they might be aware of in the moment. But again, going back, it's like for me, it's remembering and like you said, reconnecting with who you are and again, my favourite form is journaling. journeying with psychedelics, meditation, forest, bathing, intimates and social media fasting is another big one for me, like literally, like not going on your phone for the first four, six hours of your day. And then scrambling your social media use into a block. I don't always get that right. But it helps. It really does. Because every time if you just if you wake up, and the first thing you do is roll over and go on Instagram or go and eat on social media. You're just setting yourself up for a whirlwind. You've just opened Pandora's box. And you have to admit that to yourself. Like I have to admit that like as soon as I open up Instagram, my day changes like my day changes like all of a sudden now I'm a celebrity. All eyes on me and I have to show the world what I'm doing. I have to shove to show people I have to ask for attention and love. Because again, I didn't really receive it the way I wanted as a kid as my father. So I have to admit that so sometimes I will do things to get that attention and get that love. story as simple as it sounds like social media fasting has a big impact on your life. And again, one of my favourite ways is just like literally fasting with it. And you'll be surprised at how much you can get done in the morning when you intimates and social media fast. Yeah, when your morning you win your day. Exactly. Exactly. That every day you win your life. Yes, exactly. And just admitting that and when you fast. You kind of see what's really important to you and what you really need to be doing in life. Yeah. So those are those are like the dozer that again, like meat move in Montana. So is the three. I don't know what to call like, I haven't like modalities or definitely won't call them tenants. But three modalities that for me, make us inherently human. But that's how you awaken your inner shaman is by focusing on those three every single day and if you if you focus on those things will make sense. They might not make sense in the moment and you might be confused at times. But what I've come to understand, especially the last couple of months of what I've been through is there has to be a letting go. Like there is there's this mantra when you when you go on a psychedelic journey of the garden with a guy that knows what they're doing, like trust, let go be open. It's the hardest thing you'll ever have to do, but it's the most rewarding thing. So but that I've carried that with me into my life now is that I have to trust and I have to let go and be open to it all. And I know that sounds very it's maybe not concrete or everyone sort of looking for this concrete answer. But when you do that, you discover so many nuances and beautiful things that maybe you took for granted because you're a bit you know, rigid and concrete, like in your life. So, again, a big part of that my final decision is is trusting letting go and being open to the flow of existence and everything that's happening.

    Unknown Speaker 1:11:03

    Yeah, I really, really appreciate you sharing those. sharing all of this with us. I mean, awaken your inner shaman and then meet with mindfulness and specifically like meet with mindfulness. I almost think it's like the lowest hanging fruit that you can begin to work through for anything in life. And I'm just something I'm very passionate the outspoken about is just the power of lifestyle interventions. To completely revolutionise your entire state of being why this is so close to my heart is that I see so many people being diagnosed with labels, when oftentimes those labels are actually completely it's like misdiagnosis. And then when you take on that label you take on that whole persona of a sick has. When as we have been speaking this whole time our bodies have an innate ability to heal themselves if they are put in the right environment to do so. Like very, very simple example is if you cut yourself, watch how your body will form a scab and heal like that is just on the most simplistic level. And like every single cell in our body, if it's put in the right environment do so it can heal itself. However, it's so easy to just go to a doctor with a problem and then they just prescribe you with a pill. It's so much easier to take a pill then do the quote unquote hard work. However, what neat moves mindfulness brings to the floor is if you can implement that into your day to day lives. And if you take action and be proactive, take the driving wheel of your car not having to rely on any polls because again, that's not necessarily getting to the root cause of why something is happening in your human experience because as we've mentioned also before, there's always a reason there's a root cause something doesn't just like appear out of nowhere. And I really do love that these you know, meat movements and specifically highlight actionable low hanging fruit that you can do before you start taking a medication because as we know medications come with an array of severe severe side effects. If you think about it, medications are like so new in our human history. Like yeah, I mean, I'm just thinking specifically of antidepressants and like I mean, statins also come with an array off of side effects and metformin and malabsorption. And it's, I mean, it's so small it is so small yet it can have such a powerful effect in the body. And again, as you mentioned in one word, I love it that mine What is it body mind like that should actually be one word because you cannot compartmentalise so what do you think there's always some way in your body is going to respond to this pull this powerful pull that you're putting in inside of yourself? So again, I am of the opinion that yes, it's a lot slower and it's a longer process to to you know, pick the low hanging fruit and change your lifestyle. It's very fucking difficult, but it's probably like the best gift that you could ever give yourself. Obviously, there are situations where in acute like in an acute situation and in emergency situation, yes. Oh my gosh. I mean, that's why Best Western medicine is so good. Specifically for emergency medicine. Yes, and like acute cases but like to know that our bodies can heal themselves is so empowering. is so empowering. And again, meats like so are you addressing your nutrition? What are you feeding your body because food everything that enters your mouth is information for the body. And every single food has a hormonal response in your body. Look at your nutrition. Are you moving our bodies, as we've mentioned, require, you know, movements like our cells need to move and just lymphatic drainage and all the things. And again, it could be it could be going for a walk. It can be implementing breathing while you're going through a walk like listening dance, putting music or going for a dance like whatever again, it should not feel hard. Yes, we do want to challenge ourselves for sure. But like do stuff that you enjoy because again that's also if you're doing something that you enjoy, that's actually honouring your authenticity that's actually awakening your inner Shaman. And then this mindfulness again, is becoming aware of what you actually as a person like to do. So I think those three things met with mindfulness is like the crux of everything and it's so beautiful. So thank you for, for sharing all of that with us. Josh,

    Josh Snyman 1:15:24

    thank you so much. And I'll just something just popped in my head. I just want to say as well because just because of the community that we are in. Again, you have to think about you are sick for a reason, you know, and I was over Yes, I was overweight for reason. And yes, eating meat was a huge aspect of healing that but they there was a reason behind it. Something happened, you know, and, you know, although I'm not a big fan of like going back to your traumas and ruminating on there, but there's a reason you were that way and you have to uncover that reason otherwise, you get these people that just virtue signal online, and they create whole identities like you say they create whole identities, Alex colander that carnival Karen's of the world that create these whole identities, based on the diet. It's like, okay, cool. I understand that but you're so much more than your diet. You, you're Kelsey, and you've got so much more to offer than just creating this. This this, this machine that feeds you love online. So anyway, I just wanted to add that like, you go back to the roots, go back to the roots as well challenge yourself to go to the root cause of why you actually sick because it didn't just happen. Yeah, there's a reason that happened. Yeah.

    Unknown Speaker 1:16:55

    It was Freud who said nothing is insignificant. Yeah, definitely nothing is insignificant.

    Josh Snyman 1:17:00

    Yeah. I'm a big fan of quotes and on my page, which I'm sure cause you will link in the in the description or whatever. But Nietzsche said the there's more wisdom in your body than your deepest philosophy. So that points alone so sure. has profoundly impacted me going forward? Yeah. Ya know,

    Unknown Speaker 1:17:22

    amazing. Thank you so much. So I have one more question for you. But before I get to that question, Where can people find you? Where can they follow you? Where can they listen to your podcast? What's your videos on YouTube? All the things cool.

    Josh Snyman 1:17:33

    So you're at Josh Snyman. So Josh, underscore and then same on like on Instagram, and then my podcast is called Awaken Your shaman on Spotify and Apple podcasts. And then you I'm sure if you Google just Josh name is Josh Snyman. On Google. I trust people enough to Google these days. You will find like all my links and things like that. So yeah. Look forward to putting out some more content next year. I'm taking like a little bit of a break during the December period, just to reset and recalibrate and yeah, I'm looking forward to to the next to the next phase.

    Unknown Speaker 1:18:08

    Awesome. Well, my last question was what is in the pipeline for Josh so you can maybe elaborate more?

    Josh Snyman 1:18:13

    Yeah, so in the pipeline so on my websites again, I'm building this like members only section. Honestly like to think of it as a book because that's what it is. So I'm basically building a book in public. I'm actually writing a book in public basically, which is pretty, pretty cool to think about, but it's broken up into three sections, the three the three sections, which is meat, movement, mindfulness, and each one just not not telling you want to do not being your guru, not being a shaman, just from my perspective, just outlaying simple ways you can optimise your health and happiness going forward. And again, that's not to say that I've the answer. I wanted to reiterate that like 100%, this is N equals one there's so many pain points in my life that I haven't, quote unquote, figured out. But when I think about what I spoke about earlier, the letting go I can't not do this just because I haven't perfected something or haven't mastered some aspect of my life. Or whatever. No, because people instal benefits so again, you go on the websites, you sign up as a member for now. It's actually free because I'm soft launching it and I want feedback from people. And I know original members of my website have access to that. And then I've watched mentioned as well I have a weekly newsletter which I send out. Again, if you type in Awaken Your shaman on substack it's this like newsletter platform. You'll get it it used to be called the weekly brew, but I'm trying to make everything easy to digest. So at night it's called awaken or Shaman. But I will send out a weekly post on meat move and mindfulness things that I'm pondering, you know, tweets that I'm finding interesting that relates to this that can help people because again, there's so much noise, but my job right now is just trying to take the noise and just sort of package it into a more digestible form. So that can actually live my life as well. So the whole idea is that this resources book, this framework will just love there. And anybody I come into contact with, I can just say go there and look what it's about. So it's not about me constantly proving my worth by you know, sending tweets making YouTube videos, which are which I'll still do. I still love doing that stuff. But I've also got to live my life and savour it. You know, I don't know who said it. But what does that quote like? I wake up every day. It's one between this desire to save the world and save the world. But then the crux of that is like what's the point of saving the world if you don't save for it? You know? So I feel like I'm very much in that phase in my life now, where I'm savouring it more. But that doesn't mean that I want to stop with the thing that actually brings me lots of joy, which is, you know, creating content and creating stuff that can maybe help people in some way, shape or form

    Unknown Speaker 1:21:06

    now amazing. It's so exciting. Josh, I will link everything in the show notes. And thank you for coming on the show. Round three for us. Round, round one on the human theatre and so many more. And yeah, I mean, really just thank you for empowering us and for Yeah, I think that word Empower is a very pertinent word because we do have the power to curate the life that we want to and thank you, thank

    Josh Snyman 1:21:32

    you because I see the work you're putting out and the content you're putting out and and your knowledge bases like it's unprecedented compared to most people I know. So your thank you as well. For the stuff that you're doing. It's amazing.

    Transcribed by https://otter.ai

WE ARE ALREADY FREE | Nathan Maingard on Vegan -"ism", Psychedelics, Lessons from Loss & More.

Transcript

Josh Snyman 0:09
Awesome. Looks like we are live, Nathan. Thanks for coming on, brother.

Nathan Maingard 0:13
My pleasure, Josh. Thanks for having me.

Josh Snyman 0:15
Oh, good. Yeah, so she's I've got a lot that I that I sort of want to cover. I haven't been following you for a long time and I must be honest, it's kind of a bit overwhelming to know where to start with these things, especially with new people. But I thought I would start with maybe just giving the listeners like a bit of an overview of how you describe yourself because I find it very intriguing. So how do you describe yourself to the world whether online or in person? What's the best fit answer for that?

Nathan Maingard 0:50
How do I describe myself? I mean, it's always changing like I always find it funny to fit labels are always funny because none of us are labels. We are all so much beyond that. But in terms of what I feel like I'm here for, I think, on this round of the merry go round. I am in service of reminding free people that in fact inspiring and helping free people to live their truth and be the change. So that's kind of like what I'm here for in terms of what I am. I think I've just been a hyper sensitive person who never really managed to fit into the societal structures even though I tried super hard for a long time and I ended up with a lot of pain because of it. But I really remember so clearly my feelings of wanting like authentic connection and wanting just to be myself with others. I recently had a line come to me in a medicine journey, which is just I love being me with you. And I realised that that's one of my primary states is I love being me with you with all of you with this whole dance. And yet somewhere along the way, I learned that me being me wanting to be me with you is not welcome. And I was bullied and crushed and punished and all the other wonderful things that we've all been through and I'm not unique in this. So now more than anything, I think maybe the most accurate thing when someone asked me like who I am or what I'm up to, I could just say I love being new with you and that would probably be the most accurate response.

Unknown Speaker 2:26
Wow, how can I connected with that almost instantaneously, I felt that yeah, that's, that's very powerful. And this is stuff that I would love to get into the you mentioned some medicine work which I definitely want to dive into because it's some it's a very, it's a very I guess it's a hot topic these days. But I've also had some interesting experiences myself, so I would love to maybe dive into that a bit a bit later for sure. But I thought, I mean, that sort of introduction out the way I thought I would start with also how I've sort of came into contact with you which is you know, in the glorious world of Instagram and and seeing your good work put out there but specifically, I actually thought it was Tara by Donna, you pronounce it Tara so Is that correct, Tara from slow down farmstead?

Unknown Speaker 3:16
Yeah, she mentioned she said like I love the way you said and your accent but it's actually Tara

Unknown Speaker 3:21
Tara Yeah, so So I made it I made a note to just try my best to get her her the pronunciation of a name right So Tara from slowing down farmstead for those that don't know she's just got an amazing account. She's an amazing wordsmith like yourself and I just connect deeply with her work and then through her I came in contact with your work. How so how did that relationship transpire? What what's the connection be behind you know that that podcast and and the relationship itself?

Unknown Speaker 3:52
Well, she's so actually my mom recommended her terrorist page sold on farmstead at some point a few years ago and my mom makes you has she's like a really good at finding like these epic things that I don't know there's a lot of stuff we don't see eye to eye on but more and more I realise she really is on point in a lot of ways. Like when the whole like lock downs, everything first kicked off, and I was like, Oh, it's just another one of those silly things. You know, it'll be she was like, no, no, this is the beginning of something really serious. She was so dead dead on like, in so Anyway, anyway, but um, so she told me about Tara and at some point I just started following slow down farmstead and then just commenting and interacting and because Tara is I think such a wonderful human like at some point, I guess she was like, wow, this guy seems like he's really enjoying stuff and she just wants to click through to my page. And then there was a resonance obviously where she was like, Wow, I love his songs, his poems. etc. And we just started an interaction and for now she's I guess a couple of years we've just every now and then we'll just exchanged some messages and I just deeply I think she she's kind of models kind of embodiment that I'm, I'm working on it myself that I'm practising where she really lives her truth. In a way that I I am practising that's that's it kindly.

Unknown Speaker 5:12
Yeah, definitely. There's there's so much so much goodness there and I can see it in your work to be honest. It's definitely coming through and it's it seems to be blooming right now. So that's a that's a good good sight. And you know, it's I connected so deeply with with the first 1520 minutes of the podcast you did with her and I was like, wow, this is just absolutely. It's the stuff that I get super excited. About, like, in the sense that that's real. You know, that's the type of stuff that that I would love to be involved in speaking about. I mean, you mentioned the beginning, you know, sort of not fitting in I felt the same way. It's I've always wanted let's just call this guy maybe fat Joshi when he was back at the pubs you know, all the time. I always had this longing for just going a bit deeper with things and and not living on the periphery or just not living on the surface, you know, and I feel like that. I guess what I'm saying is like, this is a testament to, to me living my truth and and finding out more about myself and connecting with, you know, with with individuals like yourself and Tara and other people that I've had in the shows. So yeah, I connect deeply with that and yeah, something something very special there.

Unknown Speaker 6:37
Well, there's actually a podcast episode I don't know when this episode will be out, but I have one coming on the next Thursday, which is kind of in two days. So yeah, what timelines What is this but when my friend my dear brother, Roman, Ricardo, we have a really great conversation and at some point, I think towards the end of that conversation he talks about he's like, be you like if you don't let everyone know that you love basketball. How do the other people who love basketball find you so it's like, if now you Joshua letting the world know, this is I love depth. I love authenticity. I love meat. And then other people like Oh, me, too, I want to be a part of that. And I just think more and more that that's like, that's the whole inspiration for we are already free which came through a poem, which there's all story behind that which I can get into but for now, mainly just, it's about what can we do? What can I do? I'm not trying to convince anyone that of anything. Actually all I'm doing is singing the song of my heart so that other people who have the same song can find me and I can find them and we can all remember together that we are already free. And so rather than it being about, oh, I want to go and check all those people are wrong. I need to change their minds. Let them think what they want to think I don't I can't change anyone's mind. I'm just done pretending that I'm I'm just done pretending basically. That's at the end of the day.

Unknown Speaker 8:10
Definitely, definitely. So I mean, for those that don't know, so, I mean, kind of, I'm kind of structuring this episode around your podcast itself. So your podcast is called we are already free. And what he spoke about the poem, obviously you can go into as much detail as you like as to how they came about, but what so you gave us sort of you scratch the surface there. So how, how did what's the origins of it? You know, what's, what's the, how did this manifest itself and how did this creation come about? Because I find it very beautiful and maybe you can touch on the on the butterfly as well, because I thought that was a pretty interesting symbol for the podcast itself.

Unknown Speaker 8:54
Yeah, sure. So like when this whole thing kicked off again, because I don't know how many people remember how often we've had these kind of like, oh no SARS or Oh, no, I don't know bird flu or pigs, swine flu or like this. Every few years. There's been another thing I even saw as a photo that had been put together like a meme or something where there's all these covers of Time magazine like Oh, no swine flu. Oh no, this like they've been the sort of when I say they, I mean the consciousness that is currently thinks it's in control of reality. Is is running the game of fear and othering and oh, no, those deadly germs that are gonna kill us and there's nothing we can do. So I've been witnessing that for many years. I made my history my upbringing was Nature Cure, my parents raised me in nature. So that's when we got sick. We would fast and we would do cleanses of enemas, like which now sounds great. Like I didn't used to tell people that when I was a kid, I was like, I don't know. I was embarrassed. But it worked. I would be I'd be sick for maybe two or three, maybe four or five days at the most get a nice fever. Sweat It Out. And then I'd be well again, I never saw really went to the doctor, other than for injuries. And then when I was in my early 20s, and I first went overseas, I fully bought out again I was at that time trying to fit into the system as drinking as having sex I was doing all the wonderful things that the society told me I should do to be a good citizen and I was getting so sick, like just from eating shit food, having shit relationships, and I started going to doctors so like, Oh, I feel a bit unwell go to the doctor. They give me antibiotics, and then I'm sick for like a week and I feel terrible and I don't really feel that good afterwards. I was like, this sucks. So through my own experimentation, I realised actually the nature cures way better. And I returned to that way of just cleansing, fasting, eating better food, etc. And so I already had been through my journey my dark night of the soul with trusting the institutions to take care of me I realised a long time ago, they don't know how to take care of me. And that's one of the defining characteristics of modern society is that it doesn't actually take care of people, which is crazy, but true. And so by the time the whole COVID thing rolled around, I was just like, oh, this is ridiculous, like I didn't even really pay much attention. And then it got more intense and I was like, Okay, this is now people are really buying buying this story like they really think this is we have to be scared of, of a flip like a virus that's going to come and kill us and there's no, there's nothing you can do, except that the average age of death is way above the average lifespan of most people I've like anyway, all that stuff so so then I started sharing those kinds of things to sharing like, Hey, have you noticed that all the deaths are like older than 87 or something like that? That's like when people would be dying anyway, and it doesn't really make sense. But every time I tried to share something that had a statistic or had an alternative viewpoint, that it was so polarising, people would just like, freak out and there'd be arguments in the comments and people blocking and shouting at each other and I was like, I don't want to do that. This doesn't seem fun to me. I'm not There's nothing good coming of this so I went quiet. And I tried to stay quiet. But I couldn't because it had this feeling of I have a truth and my truth is valid but my truth isn't about prove disproving someone else. I'm not trying to attack or defame or other or make someone else evil but I have a truth. That's mine. And it's important for me. And that's when I first wrote my I started with long form poems, and I've been a songwriter since I was 15 years old, 1415 years old. So that's more than half my lifetime ago. And I've always loved poetry. I've written poems. Here and there, but I never and I've always loved spoken word poetry, but I'd never written a long form poem like that. And then I was like, I need to get this out. And I just didn't feel like a song. So I have too much to say. And so I started these long form poems, and I think we are already free was maybe the second or the third one. that I wrote. And I'm saying that you know, I've been a lyricist my entire for most of my life. So I really words are like my, my gem that I've been polishing my whole life like the diamond in the rough that I polish till it shines. So the fact that I could translate that into written long form poetry. It's not like I suddenly started writing poems people haven't asked that like, oh, you know, what spirits do you think you channelling and I'm like, I'm channelling like, 30 years of deeply dedicated love of words. Like, I don't know what I don't want. You want to call that? But um, but at the end of the day, we're all channelling the divine. That's the funny part is just how clear who we have we got the signal, the channel that the signal comes through. It's really just about that. So anyway, I put that poem out. And what's hilarious is because I didn't know how viral stuff works, I didn't put my name on the video anywhere. I just, you know, put it up on my Instagram and then it just went and next thing people were writing to me from like Australia and America and all over the world being like, well what was funny about it is first of all a few people wrote to me like Hey, isn't this you? And then more and more people and then someone tagged me on facebook being like, I think this is you man because basically people were downloading the video and re uploading it, but no one could very quickly. The Broken telephone. No one knew who I was because my name wasn't on the video. Anyway, and that's how we are already free came about it was really my commentary on what I was witnessing, through my own lens of having lived through trying to trust society with it. Especially I think, I mean, there's many points of the poem makes but one of them is that comes up now is the idea that you all need to get an injection otherwise, you're a really bad person. And I'm like, I understand the logic of thinking that everyone needs to try to look after everyone else. So why don't we first you all stop drinking Coca Cola and watching the news and sitting on your couch and you all come outside and you do exercise and you eat good food and you think good thoughts. And then we see how everyone's health is and if we're still really in a bad way, then maybe we can talk about your injections. And and that was the point I was making is like it doesn't work. You've got to take the logic both ways. If you say I have to, that you want to control my bodily sovereignty so that you can feel safer. I want to do the same thing to you and I think we should do mine first because it's natural. That's how nature intended.

Unknown Speaker 15:14
Anyway, I got a little I tangent but basically we are already friends. And that line, we are already free. It's how the poem ends. It's the last line in the poem, and I really felt every time I would say that I could just feel people it was like taking a breath. Just like left Thank you. Yes. Yes. And so I know that on practical terms, as in my conversation with Emily of free birth society, which is the second episode of my podcast, she's like, she's like, I like the name. We already finished it. But in reality, we're all born into captivity in the society and that's the current reality and it's like, I'm not denying that. But in the same way that we use mantra, and we use prayer, and we use intention, and visualisation to manifest the future that we want. That's what we are ready for is about is that in the intrinsic and important ways, we are already free. And as we come to embody that and believe that and live by that, then that becomes our reality. And so that's the whole thing I'm in service of is the remembrance of that simple truth that we are already free.

Unknown Speaker 16:19
Yeah, it's, I mean, that the word I wrote was an intrinsic it literally the residue benefits of of that mantra and knowing that that you have with everything within you and like you said, there are practicalities to to the statement itself. But when you trust your you trust yourself at a very basic level and you listen to you know, I like to call it the inner shaman or your inner guide, you know, some really beautiful things can can take place. Like you said, the sickest I've been, has been when I've been thrust into the institutions of the world and the doctors and and I've sort of lost touch with my my inner shape might mean a shaman, you know, I've lost touch with my we are already free mantra that's that's been carried with me and so I connect with that on such a level. Yeah, it's amazing.

Unknown Speaker 17:27
Now this isn't this No, like how simple it is to reclaim but then also how hard it is to reclaim it's like both at the same time and we just love her Rhonda says we're all just walking each other home. And I think that that remembrance is such a you know, I was thinking a lot about truth, obviously, especially in the last few years where polarisation has become the primary weapon in the arsenal of separation because that's how polarisation works, it separates and I was thinking like okay, so what is the truth if I'm told on one side that veganism is the way forward I'm told now that I should eat only meat? Or even more if I'm told that I don't have medical sovereignty, and I need to trust the government and the medical systems? Or no, no, I actually am responsible as find out how do I know what the truth is? Where do I find that and I one of the ways that I have worked out for myself is anything or anyone that is basically just pointing directly at me. Is that something worth trusting, so anything that is trying its best or practising or facilitating me being empowered, that is definitely in the direction of truth. It's pointing at that it's pointing in an important direction. And actually, it's the hilarity of all the wisdom teachings is that these great masters, these great teachers, all they've ever been doing is pointing directly into your heart, Josh, your heart, whoever's listening in my heart, they're pointing and what happens is that so many people bow down and they say, oh holy finger, I am not worthy of your and like all the fingers doing is pointing strategy like Europe may. And yet we forget and we obsess over the teacher and the guide and the messenger. We we worship the map rather than using the map to get home.

Unknown Speaker 19:16
Yeah, I mean, I just want to Yeah, like so much there is. It's so easy to latch on to these, you know, these gurus, the self improvement courses and it is so easy and I see so many people falling victim because I've fallen victim, I'm saying that from personal experiences. You know, I was I was so about nine years ago, I decided, you know, I was very overweight. Kid very, very fat my whole entire life. And I decided, you know, this is it, I need to change in a biological level. But as good as that change was, it's it made me feel inferior in many ways afterwards because it's like when does it stop? You know, when does the self improvement bandwagon stop and who's the next person I need to latch on to to get to what I want in that if you know, where's like you said it these these grades you know the RAM does and the grades that really speak to you are speaking to you it's not they're not selling you anything they're selling you personal sovereignty. And I and you can't put a price tag on that. So then technically not selling it but yeah, I think that's so powerful. Love that.

Unknown Speaker 20:41
There's also this you will ask him about the butterfly earlier. So the cover of my podcast is a butterfly. And that actually came about I was putting together because people have been asking me that I want to be able to read these long form poems like in my own time because there's so much in them. So I created a basically just a free little ebook that is now offered on my website that's got sort of six. See, I just added an extra poem. It's either got five or six. I can't remember exactly. But anyway, I put that together and I was doing it on Canva and I found that image of the butterfly and I was like this just really feels beautiful. I love it. We already free it was all kind of resonating, and then I put that on there. And then when I was doing the podcast, I thought I'd do the same thing. And over that time. I mean, I've always loved the story of the butterfly and the caterpillar and the Seto. It's the perfect representation of transformation. But then just recently because I've been like so much about the butterfly because of the podcast and everything. I had this realisation that I haven't heard anyone talk about yet and I think it's it's such an important one if we're going to really, if we're going to really acknowledge the infinite game that we're playing. And this might sound very out there for some people and it's totally cool if it doesn't resonate for anyone, but I don't I think we are we are in infinity because I remember when I was a kid, I always used to be like, when did it begin? And then they'd like, oh, well, you know, the big bang. I'm like, But what about before the Big Bang? And it's like, where's the outside edge of reality? They're like, Oh, no, well, it's infinite, but it's expanding. It's like does that how does any of that make sense? And I could never get and as a kid I eventually I was like, Oh, I guess I just shouldn't be curious about that. Turns out I was bloody right. Because having now worked with breathwork and with plant medicines and actually experienced the dance between the finite and the infinite, I realised that we are literally a dream that the Infinite is having we are a finite part of infinity because for infinity to be infinite, there has to be the finite within it. And here we are having the finite experience within the infinite dance. And so that truth is very true. For me like that's my I know that deeply. And so what I noticed within even within all these new this new age of transformation, and we all everyone's obsessing about the butterfly, as if the butterfly is a destination. It is a destination in a cycle that it is not the end there. Is no end. So there's the butterfly. Then the butterfly lays an egg the egg becomes a caterpillar, the caterpillar eats and devours and actually destroys a lot in its journey of transformation. I noticed that the other day there were all these caterpillars on a tree at my dad's house and they had just about decimated the whole tree. And I was like well, then they'll go into cocoons, and they'll come up butterflies and they'll pollinate that same tree. So there's this beautiful invitation in that transformational journey to let go of the obsession with the butterfly. Yes, we will become at some point the butterfly the representation of enlightenment we will reconnect with our divine nature and be full expanded beings at one with everything all that you did it and then we'll go alright done this for a while Guess I'll go back to Caterpillar again. Let's start again. And it's we're even saying that there's a part of me that's like, whoa, that's intense. Like there's no end. It doesn't. But the gift of infinity is forgetfulness. Because here I am. I don't remember that. I don't remember being one with everything and being all that is all at once in all directions and all times happening simultaneously. Like, here I am. I'm Nathan, as far as I can tell in this moment. And that's the gift to remember to let go is that we are just on a journey and each part of the journey is as natural as every other part. If you're a caterpillar and you're listening to this, be a caterpillar. If you're a caterpillar mush inside a cocoon dissolving and you don't know what's going to come out the other side, dissolve trust the cocoon trust the process. If you're a butterfly, well then you know you're at that phase where you you get it and it's all good. It's all part of the cycle. Not none of them are better than the other. And I think the real gift that these masters have always been telling us is like you're it and you're it now. You don't have to go anywhere else to be in it. Just be it. That's it here we are done.

Unknown Speaker 24:57
It's beautiful. I love that. I really do. I think maybe that that's a kind of good lead on to. So you spoke about. Again, I'm going back to the podcast with Tara because it was so powerful to me but you spoke about your dog Sasa and because we were just speaking about the different stages and you spoke about going back and transforming and you spoke about it cracking open this this this portal of pain and loss for you and just to give you a bit of context. In 2019 I had I lost for the first time a very close family man, I lost my gran and I never thought it would it would have the impact that it did. And at the same time I was on this journey of self discovery and I guess maybe if you call you know going to Africa burden and taking a bit too much psychedelics journey of self discovery, but I was young and I was you know, none the wiser. But yeah, so I had a very difficult experience at Africa Burton. On on some heavy dose psychedelics, and for the first time I got I got a bad witness to this idea of loss and it came down to me like a hurricane and it shaped it shaped my last few years like dramatically and I definitely, definitely think for the better. If I had known better than I would have, I would have you know, more of my favourite monitors is trust let go and be open. And I kind of wish I carried that with me through that experience because I ran away from it. I was so I was kind of embarrassed about what had happened to me there. And somebody when I was going through a difficult time that went that night somebody had guided me and helped me sort of just come down from the experience and I remember I remember taking my hand and feeding the earth again. And when the sun came up, I was crying and it was a very, very tough experience. And the the experience was tough. But the ripple effect was was was was harder, you know, the coming months, just just knowing what had happened. And then what also came out was this, this dawning moment and this difficult relationship that I've had my father my entire life also came out from that. So everything you know when it rains it pours so everything just came down on me like a an absolute hurricane. But it was, from my perspective, it was birthed from that feeling of loss and my gran was an incredible woman. She She was one of the only people in my family that didn't question anything I did. It was just like, she used to call me she used to call me my son. And she and whatever I did, she just said if it makes you happy, do it and she was just this incredible human that just sort of just just gave me this permission to be you know who I am and I think that was the difficult part is you know realising that but i digress a bit but you spoke about your your dog and and I resonated with that and you spoke about this comparison you and interior spoke about this comparison of depths of loss. So I was wondering if you could maybe just speak to that because to me it was super, super powerful.

Unknown Speaker 28:25
Well, thank you so much for sharing and honouring, honouring your grandmother. And just honouring all loss. It's really sad. And it is one of the realities that none of us can really ever escape is that we will lose it all. Eventually. And it's sad. It's fucking hard when I when my dog Cecil went, and it was still quite early days. I called a friend of mine. And we were just speaking about something unrelated and I told her about Sasa and and she said something I'd never heard before I'd heard it one way but not this way. She said it she said when the student is ready, the teacher leaves and I just because I've always heard you know, when the student is ready, the teacher arrives and hearing your story I was thinking how, how beautiful that you had this your grandmother in your life who was that one person who could really just like always saw you as enough was always just like, you're good. How beautiful that is and that in the time that she left that cracking open was your time to grow and to transform into someone who internally is practising and enough and how interesting that timing is and how for me the timing of Sasa leaving. I have never in my life been as prepared. Not that anyone can prepare for something like that, but I've never had as many resources available to feel the feelings of my mom abandoning me for nine months when I was 10 years old, just disappearing and literally not a phone call or a letter having no idea where she was or what had happened. I don't remember that time. Really. I remember her going. I remember her dropping us off for the weekend and our dads and I remember her. I remember my dad saying I have a surprise for you nine months later and it wasn't my mom. And so I've never been able to access that stuff. And Sasa leaving gave me access to that and it's, it's as you know, it's eviscerating. It is like, it is like being dragged blindfolded over coals and razors and like it's the gnarliest hardest, most painful stuff. And yet, it's also real. And I had this realisation recently around that that the great mother, the mother of all the Divine Mother has to go through that as, as Emily said in our, in our talk on my podcast that like everyone who's everything that's born is born to die. And every mother that births knows in some way that she is birthing a being that is going to die and that's and then I was like okay, we'll expand that to infinity. And imagine that if Mother Earth as an entity was she knows that everything she births is going to die. And yet she loves us all unconditionally and she holds us all unconditionally and she keeps making new life because that's what she's here to do. Like how's that for love and understanding and acceptance and a level of loss that I can't even wrap my head around. But but with Tara it was interesting because I felt almost ashamed to bring up the loss of Sasa because Tara lost her daughter and and so but I really wanted to go there because it is like when I think about it now I still there's a part of me that even as you said her name Sasa was like your competence. She's gone. Like it doesn't make sense. How's this possible? And it just like it doesn't mean that's life. It's just as it's not. It's not meant to make sense. It's meant to be experienced and known. And I'm still practising that I still bypass it and hide from it at times because it's so painful. But I'm here I'm in you know, like I do, I'm doing my best and

Unknown Speaker 32:19
and just Tara said it beautifully. She's like, we can't compare loss like loss is loss, and we're all we love what we love, and we lose and we go through it. And I know for me personally at this point, it is the biggest loss that I've ever consciously been through. And yeah, and that's it. I don't know what else to say to anyone out there listening who is navigating loss. I wish you the resources to be able to really feel it. Whatever that looks like to find the people or the practices that breathwork that meditations, whatever it is that lets us sit in the pain and like a river a flood a torrent, let it flow through you. Because it what it all it wants to do is move I actually have a song that I'm writing at the moment and it's on that theme. And it says someday life will crack you open overflow emotion and the damn floodwaters will burst. Don't flee the flood it seeks the ocean. Every motion is a sign of your beautiful thirst. So if you're listening to this and you know loss, let it run let it run

Unknown Speaker 33:36
yeah

Unknown Speaker 33:39
that's beautiful. And yeah, thank you for thank you for sharing that it. Like I said for me, I mean, you said it again but just bring it up. Makes that awareness. Everyone is I guess, in some sense playing this single player game that we play. So your your level of consciousness is going to attach the level of depth to whatever you're experiencing and no one can tell you that your suffering is no less than somebody else's. And I think the difficult experiences that I've that I've had in the past through plant medicine or or breath, breath work or everything that I've done is made me appreciate that on a very deep level and see people's suffering as congruent with their nature and it's not about me it's about what they experiencing. And yeah that's that's profound. It's it's beautiful.

Unknown Speaker 34:50
Yeah, there's a I think the hardest thing is or one of the hardest things for me is that it's all in service to growth is so there's a part of me that I punish myself because I wish that I had been conscious enough and together enough and healed enough that says it didn't have to go that way that that she could have stayed and I could have held her in my arms as she paused rather than her running away for whatever reasons that she did. Or that you know, all the stories that I have and at the same time that we if you believe in the idea of karma of this idea that everything is happening and service to growth everything is a part of the story of ourselves unfolding for ourselves. there becomes a kind of a piece within that of like, okay, instead of how did I fuck this up? It's what is the lesson this is gifting me. And I had a vision of that of like because Sasa we have beautiful pictures of her on the wall that currently my beloved made for me for my birthday honouring Sasa these big like prints. And sometimes when I look at them, I feel bad. I look at them and I just feel guilty. And in my plant medicine journey, it showed me how if I if I continue to just show up like practice showing up that's that's the whole point is I'm going to fail a gazillion more times but all I have to do is get up one more time and then I fail just one extra get up to every fail and then those those images of Sasa on the wall become trophies. They become a hero that has been rightfully honoured and worshipped as a teacher on my path that gave her life so that I could grow and heal and become fully myself and that in fact, her death is like so honourable and so in service to life. That of course I would have those photos and I would bow before them and give thanks. And that's just a story. You know, I can tell the story of our Nathan you're such a fuckup that your dog ran away and it's all your fault or Nathan, you're doing the best that you can and Sasser surrendered and sacrificed her life as she is all part of the one that I am a part of. And she's that part of me sacrificed itself so that this part of me could fully embody and then show up in service and live a beautiful life and celebrate and have joy. And I'd much rather tell that story. That's a way better story for i for everyone that I know for myself. For everything. So that's what I'm practising.

Unknown Speaker 37:14
Yeah. With you, brother. And I think you summed it up by saying doing the best you can. I mean, if I had known better, I would have done better. That's all I can say. And these these, these things come and you can be prepared but you know, you you just you sometimes just have those blinders on and if anything these painful experiences for me certainly has just taken them completely away. I'm like now all of a sudden just looking all around and just seeing this, this experience called Life from from a perspective that I just have not experienced before. Yeah, yeah, so you mentioned breathwork and plant medicine. I would love to touch on these because I think they as ill prepared as I've been in the past, you know, as one does, I came in I came into the experience like a typical typical person interested in these substances, you know, going to trans parties and having a few psychedelics and not really not really respecting the medicine, you know, although I've always been interested in it. I've never had access, which is the sad part as well, which maybe you've want to touch. I've never had access to a guide that I can go to because I unlike many of my friends at school, I was reading about them before I stepped foot in and I was interested in it but I didn't know where to go. I actually had no way no guide to sort of, to to seek the help that I wanted to with these with these powerful medicines. So what like, I don't know I was going somewhere with this and I've I've sort of lost my train of thoughts of it. But what what is your what has been your experience with plant medicine? And and how is it informed you? And then maybe, if you want to also just touch on the breath work side of things as well and how that's maybe a similar experience, but maybe less? I don't know less than tense initially, but I don't know how you want to tackle that. But that's go for it.

Unknown Speaker 39:36
Cool. Yeah, thank you. I mean, I think many of us are most of us initially came to psychedelics through just like experimentation and thinking, you know, I had mushrooms a few times when I was a teenager and then kind of left it alone. I think for me personally, I'd always always been more like would take me too deep into this kind of medicine, medicine work and I was like, I thought this was supposed to be fun. And medicine work. Actually is is fun at the end of the day. This is the funny part is that I only started to realise but

Unknown Speaker 40:11
yeah, when I walked away from it for many, many years and then I started hearing about this thing called Ayahuasca some years ago and was like an a people who I really respected were, were using these things and because I had, I had bought the story that psychedelics was like something hippies do and it's all like weird and crazy and and then all these people are really these leaders and business owners and people who were like really showing up beautifully in the world running really conscious businesses and showing up for their families. And they were all talking about these things, and this is not 2008 2009 And then I had my first experience with Iosco and 2000 End of 2009 which blew me like I was so not ready and I went into the circle of people who I did I was I didn't know anyone there. I'd heard about it through someone and I just arrived and drank ayahuasca and then like left my freakin body for however many hours it was super intense and I sat with it a few more times that year 2010 Because yeah, but every experience was like, they were good lessons for me. The second experience was choose your guides wisely. And I'm not saying the guide. There was a bad guide but that wasn't good for me. I didn't resonate with the guy that didn't resonate with the vibe. It was very unsafe. And I think that this is actually very important. I'm hearing more people start to share around like safety and how important it is because there are energetic frequencies and there are entities and there are consciousness different types of consciousness that have different agendas. And it's so so so important that the set and the setting are sorted, that it's with people who you deeply trust, who know how to navigate all the spaces that can come up and really prioritise, prioritise safety really because so that you can go to unsafe spaces in yourself spaces that are dangerous spaces that are way outside of your comfort zone. And that you can go there and know that no matter what's happening, there's someone there. who's got your back, who's holding the container who's keeping the energy clear who's keeping the music going, who's got the sage burning, like keeping that vibe high. I think that is actually critical. And I would also add to that, that I know I'm going practical, and I'll go into more stories of how it's affected me but I just think it's so important that we cover this aspect which is is also the integration preparation and integration are critical. I still want to improve my integration, I still lose so much of the wisdom and the teachings I get when I work with plant medicine because I'm still trying to find good integration practices. And support networks. And this is something I think a lot about, and I think we will develop them as we go forward in this. But I would envision that eventually people will start to have integration circles where there's and I know that they happen but more and more. When that becomes normal that we you know, okay, we're going to sit with medicine. Great. Do you have your integration group ready like are you going to be integrating with other people? And just making sure because basically, our life as we live it right now is like a groove. And so we've worn that groove in our heads and also in the external reality. So we come out of this, this medicine being like wow, I've so shifted everything's different i I'm connected to the Divine within myself and within everything else, my whole life is gonna change and then we just slot straight back into our little rut, and within a few days, would do exactly waking up late binge watching Netflix, eating shitty food, like whatever the stories are, because all that and then our relationships, our friends, our family they're all alike, but I expect you to be a certain way and so then they have the pressure of like, not always but these are the the realities that are worth considering. So what am I putting in place that is going to help me to stay open and stay expanded and take action on the insights that I gain in these journeys. I think that's such an important place to start saying all of that. I don't know that I would I don't think I would still be alive if it wasn't for plant medicines. I was in such a bad way for a long time and I was looking for something and even to the point that my family and friends, none of whom are really pro pharmaceuticals. They started saying like, Maybe you should take some antidepressants, because this is like worrying. You know, at one point, I think I was trying to contact Valkenburg to like, Can I check myself in you know, like, can I because I'm I don't know how I'm going to keep going

Unknown Speaker 44:39
and fortunately I kept researching and kept finding information about plant medicines and decided and I felt a call letting funnily enough this was now already. She's when I was still in England was like years and years ago, but my reconnection with psilocybin was that I had I think I had a dream about it and had this feeling where like for weeks it was like I should take mushrooms I said Why am I thinking that I have not been like I've been touched psychedelics in many many years. I I'm not in I'm not keen. And then a few weeks later, this is like end of cautious as many years ago now but a friend arrived to visit and as she walked through the door I was house sitting my aunt's house in North London and England. And as you walk through the door, she just handed me a bag and said, Hey, my friend grows mushrooms and I don't know why but I thought you might want these and I was like, Okay, I guess I'm taking those. And I actually it was maybe two, maybe three grammes, which is still a respectable dose. And I that New Years, I just stayed home and I ate these mushrooms and they really helped me a lot. And then again, it was years before I was courageous enough because I was scared of containers and I felt so unsafe I wanted to do it by myself. I never wanted anyone to see my wounding and I think that's a big part of this fight the funny that every man is an island like we're all I needed. I was like if I just heal by myself, then I can bring myself back to the world and then everyone can get the nice, the beautiful healed happy Nathan. And anyway, so I found a therapist eventually who was working illegally in South Africa, and like a clinical psychologist, and I worked with the psychologist and then at some point, was able to go and sit with five gramme dose of psilocybin with a few other people. And then I had two more solo journeys and and I mean, those journeys were so transformative, like they just, it was that feeling of of letting go of the identity of my story, Nathan with his physical pain and his teeth issues and his I don't know what job to do and I'm depressed and all that's happened to me and my life and it was like I went out through that layer. Like the ego death, as they call it, and then, and then ancestors and then society and then Earth and then life and then and eventually, I was just the field of light and colour and love, and that's all that there was. That's all and I even at that perspective, I could look in and I saw like, Hitler, and Holocaust and and I like lots of beautiful things and love but like I also saw the dark and nasty stuff. And that feeling of that being that that ocean of colour and sound and light that is just all one thing. It was just I love you. I love you. I love you to all of it. Every little piece, the brightest and the darkest. And that was a fucking relief, to realise like we are all worthy before the eyes of the Lord basically like that no one this idea of of hell, as some punishment that we get held something that we do to ourselves, when we forget to forgive like there's a beautiful story of the Buddha, where there was a whether it's true or not, it's you know, it's a it's a teaching story. There was a guy who dedicated his life to murder. Like he was literally I want to kill as many people as I can. That's my life's purpose. And he killed 999 people, and he's like, I need a big one for my 1000 Kill. You know, like I really need to make a mark and you should have heard about this Buddha guy, I'm gonna go and I'm gonna I'm taking that I'm taking him down. And he went and he met the Buddha and because of the Buddha because he was so connected to his oneness to his true nature when this man met the Buddha, he was like, Oh, I've I needed to learn, I need to learn what you're doing and I want to do it. And he did. He sat with the Buddha and he attained his own enlightenment, his connection, and then He dedicated the rest of his life, going back to the families of every person he'd murdered. Not to like I'm sorry, I'm sorry, but to teach them meditation so that they could also realise that they hadn't lost anything that nothing is lost and that everything is one and it's all okay. And I'm sure he apologised a few times too but like, but there's a beauty in that of like, again, if I carry my guilt around the mistakes that I made that may have caused my dog Sasa to run away then I'm doing us all a disservice. But if I take those lessons, and I use the skills and the practices, that for me, plant medicine and breath work are like the most direct way to realise that truth and to come home to that truth. Because at the end of the day, the universe is a dance it is a song, it is a story universe, one story universe, one song, and the song is to be danced. And so all of these medicines are doing all the breathwork is doing and the plant medicines is saying, oh, there's something there that's stopping you from dancing. Let's get that out. Let's purge that. Lets cry it out. It's shouted out to shake it out. And then keep then get back up and keep dancing like that's because that's what you came here to do. So it's not a punishment, like the difficulty that is plant medicine and breath work is the difficulty of being wounded, of being of having pain. Of having unhealed trauma, and the process of healing that is only to then return to let's sing and dance and make love forever and ever. Amen. Oh,

Unknown Speaker 49:59
man, you you said something about you. I know you mentioned ancestors and forgiveness. I had a actually during during COVID During the deep deep dark depths of COVID and locked down and things like that. I was also I had this I had this calling had this calling to to to to dive into plant medicine and I wanted to go to a guide. I wanted to respect the medicine itself and I had this longing and also into a guy that was working in Johannesburg at the time. And I took a pretty hefty dose of mescaline and that's a long trip. That was the longest trip I've ever experienced. I mean it was like it was like 20 hours it was crazy. But during the initial stages of it i i spoke about my dad and just like I've read a lot of Bartlett's and I know Dave Feldman and all these greats that writes about psychedelics and think they say hold on to your goals. So the insights that you get, you only want to share them with people that you that you really know or respect them. And it's so easy to just like hand them off to people that are not ready that that might actually dismiss your insights and things like that, but certainly with you I feel I could share this but I remember so I've had this difficult relationship with my dad my entire life and and I've been raised by my mom, single mom most of my life has been me and her and and I knew this was something that I had to face and and I remember taking the medicine and I saw my dad's pain as a kid the same pain that was carried down to me. I saw his pain. And I saw my ancestors pain. And I saw this generates male generational pain that had been passed down to all the men in my family. And I just cried my eyes out and I came together with my father like I got this image in my head. We wrapped we wrapped our heads together and and I just I saw my ancestors dancing around us. And we all just like sort of came in and close each other up. And and yeah, I felt this level of forgiveness that that I just don't think would be possible without plant based medicine. It's safe to say that it opened up. Or, yeah, maybe that's a big statement but it just opened up this, this level of forgiveness. That was so profound to me and it's, I carry with me every day and I'm super grateful and we are much better terms now for that and just having that ability to access your pain without your ego I guess is what it's about is to see your pain as just pain and it's when your ego is attached to it that that you really have a difficult time associating with it or or or understanding it. So yeah, thanks for mentioning that I just thought I would share that with you because I just had a very similar experience who with with with what you were.

Unknown Speaker 53:29
Yeah, mentioning beautiful. Yeah, it's beautiful. I mean as I love that, I think that the breath is such a good guide as well for because at times it is it's not like the things we're talking about are super hard assigned to be in that space and to be confronted by something dark and ugly and angry and and like because it's toxic stuff that gets stuck and it wants to move but it's scary to go to the place where where it is so that we can let it move. And for me, I think that's where the breath can become such a good friend. The breath is a reminder that life wants to flow is that there is an in breath and then there is an art breath and we can't actually stop either of them for any length of time and if we try it really hurts, so might as well come back to the breath and that in the breath. And I'm sorry, here here we go. Letting Go letting it flow letting it move. So yeah, really, always coming back to the breath. It's interesting you talk about your dad because I've held a lot of anger for my dad even though we've been super close and in some ways it's like the what are they like the golden shadow? Where everyone always thought like Oh, Nathan and mark like what a beautiful son and son and father like they just get on so well and they're so similar and and I think because of that I never really had a chance to explore the parts that were hurt and that were broken and that were in pain. And I saw for a long time that that started expressing his anger and I was very impatient, very angry with him. And I couldn't really work out why. But interestingly, in a journey I had a plant medicine journey I had brought a photo with me to the weekend of myself as a really young boy sitting on a on a fence looking at my dad who was taking the photo on a phone camera and in the journey for the first time. And this is what's so beautiful about these medicines whether it's breathwork or plant medicines or trans dancing or whatever it is it gets to the what's beautiful is that it dissolves it helps us to see things literally see things from another perspective. So in that moment, I suddenly for the first time ever, I'd always looked at that photo and be like, oh look, I'm happy I looked then you know that little Nathan who just wanted to play and have a good time. Oh, wow. You know, that's sad that I lost a lot of that, etc. And in the moment in this journey, suddenly I looked through the camera, and I saw the love that my dad had taking that photo. And I saw that like wow, I just knew that the man who took that photo loved me absolutely as well as he could and with all of the brokenness and the wounding of our lineage. Yet there he was taking a photo of his smiling young son just being like, wow, this is amazing. And I knew that deeply and it just freed me from all that rage and all that blame that I'd been holding with him and it's not that he hasn't done bad shit. I've done bad shit like we all have, but we will equal in that we're all innocence before the Lord you know. And when I say the Lord, I just mean the universe, the divine, the sacred, whatever we want to call it, but we truly are all equal within the divine dance, and it's so nice to remember that.

Unknown Speaker 56:53
Yeah, thank you. Well, I guess we Yeah, you never alone is a great overarching theme is that is as alone as you think you are. You just there's people out there that the integration is here. And that's what's important about it is that I suppose for me this podcast is a bit of an integration integration session as well. But yeah, but Nathan, I want to be quite respectful of your time. I know we coming up. I don't know how much more time you have left. But maybe a bit of a, I guess a bit of a bit of a quick segues. That's just for myself. I suppose it's a bit of a personal like scratching, scratching of the itches that you know you put on such good content and your social media and stuff like that and, and such purpose for content. How do you manage your your your time and social media, how do you how do you manage your connections and how do you ensure that you don't get lost in the void of just the constant? I guess, stuff that comes our way just going online. And yeah, you can tackle that how I view IV like

Unknown Speaker 58:10
Well, thank you so much for for the invitation. And in all honesty, it's my biggest shadow piece like I really really struggle with. With tech addiction. It's always been, I've always been surprisingly like I love tech. I'm really good at it. Like I understand how it works. I love to always try to work out the best way to do things, but it means that i i don't know I'm addicted to it. I won't deny it. I feel and in some ways it's a solution I'm still looking for I'm still seeking the balance, because I think of it like imagine being someone who owns a bar and you're an alcoholic. It's your business and it's killing you. And so for me like I'm very addicted to my phone and to Tech in general social media especially. And yet it's also where my work is and where I share with people and where I get clients for my my intuitive guiding and my coaching and my breath work. And so, what I do know and what I do notice is that if I focus more on what I do want, if I take more time to plan my days and to vision my life and to take time literally manifesting like breathing and imagining the body the life the relationships the the the feelings that I want to feel more of in my life and then I take time to plan okay, what are the actions I'm taking this week and today or this month to Matt to move in that direction? That that kind of just pushes out the other stuff, like like for so much time on social media. So I've also recently started being in service more it's something you know, at times, I volunteered on lifeline, the South African suicide hotline, and then I moved in so I haven't been doing that. But I in the local community. I started volunteering a few times a week and I'm just pyrite consciously prioritising more of the things that I do care about and then there's just simply less time for the other stuff. It is still a challenge. And there have been times when I've been way better at it and we're worse at it and then comes in it goes. Unfortunately, the reality is that these apps and these devices are designed. The algorithms are way cleverer than my monkey brain. At getting me getting those dopamine triggers to fire. So, so it's a tough one man. It's a it's an ongoing journey. I know that when I prioritise connection with other people when I prioritise connection with my purpose, connection to my to service to helping others connection to nature and adventure that naturally the social media falls away. What I'm still learning to navigate is when I have like spare moments go to the toilet, or I'm just like, we're at a restaurant a colleague goes off to the bathroom or gets a call. It's like the easiest thing to just pick up my phone and get back into it. So these are still things I'm navigating and I really I have an intention to spend my time more beautifully and more presently. And I'm working on that it is a work in progress, and I don't have I don't have the answers on that one. It's it's a difficult one because this tech is so addictive. And it's been it's been my primary drug for a long time. And so in some ways people were like, Oh, well, at least it doesn't cocaine. I'm like, well, that's kind of easier to like get away from cocaine once you make that decision. Whereas this is literally integrated into my whole life. So yeah, if anyone out there has other suggestions I'm in.

Unknown Speaker 1:01:55
Well, I mean, I like how you've gone full circle back to what she was speaking about in the beginning is back to the truth. It's just when you've got that truth bottled up inside you, it's, you've got this, these platforms that make it so easy and so accessible to release that truth. But then, it's like once you've done the releasing, it's like there's this sort of ripple effect of other just scrolling and meme devouring and things like this

Unknown Speaker 1:02:24
meme devour Yes.

Unknown Speaker 1:02:28
And then you know if I can just maybe sign off quickly so you you posted speaking of you posted this video, I love it and you how you memorise that whole piece about veganism. But she spoke about veganism being this other ism. You can go as deep as you want, but that was a great video. And reason being is because I've often found that within the plant medicine, space space breathwork space there. There's this sort of perception that you have to adopt you know it's like if you in the you just automatically by default have to adopt you know, a plant based diet to be considered spiritual or to be considered connected there I maybe it's a maybe it's my own perception but that's what I fall flat again, reaching out to you a big part of my reaching out to you as because you were so open about everything. And like you said, you don't want to be caged into this thing. So can you just speak about that and maybe touch on how has that has your diet itself evolved over time? And how is it maybe affected you?

Unknown Speaker 1:03:37
Yeah, thank you. You know, to me the word spirit spirituality has become associated with this idea of transcending the physical. And it's like what I was talking about earlier that the caterpillar and the cycle, there's nothing to transcend. So, everything we see everything that exists, we are it is us. We are at some stage reflections of everything we experience. And I used to think, as it says in that poem, you're talking about which is called life unfolding into everything. And I've often thought about leaving out that first piece of like, have you yet realised that veganism is just another ism. And I think a lot of people get hooked on that, especially the people who like label themselves as vegan they get hooked on the on that and I'm only speaking from experience I was part of that. Not just that lifestyle, but that industry. I worked in raw food veganism. I worked in a vegan cafe in Camden Town in London. I worked in a vegan dessert kitchen in London like I went all the way deep in that world. I really know what it feels like to think as I say in the poem that like I don't have to feel any guilt if I don't see any blood on my plate like that. That's that I get away from killing that I get away from something having to die so I can live. And I think one of the limitations of that perspective is that consciousness is like more or less like there's more or less consciousness like oh, well a cow is super conscious, but like a piece of lettuce is not at all conscious because it doesn't for whatever reason, I don't think that they show up in life in the same way but I do know that when a plant is being eaten, it will send toxins out into its leaves to stop the predator from eating it more. I do know that when a tree in the forest falls down the other tree send messages are like hey, what's up what's happening? Someone someone's gone, like we need to work this out. That's what's the danger. Life, life wants to live and all life dies. And so what I realised over time was I could either meet that honestly, and meet that in the fullness of itself. Or I could continue to pretend that I didn't have to be a part of that cycle by drinking almond milk or whatever the story was that I had about that. And I came to the light through regenerative agriculture like just seeing how how rich the earth is when there are ruminants and when there are predators that keep the ruminants moving so that the ruminants don't eat too much of the grass or the bushes. And how important that cycle is that the ruminants are moved on by predators and that we are now we have to be responsible for that because we've killed too many of the predators which is really sad, but it's the reality it's where we are right now. So all those kinds of things and also, I've always followed and listened to people I consider kind of leaders in in whatever area I'm interested in. So when I was into the veganism stuff like I was following people, like shazzy, who wrote the book naked chocolate, which popularised raw chocolate, like she wrote the book with David Wolfe, who's like the leader of the raw vegan movement for a long time, like, and I went to work for shazzy Like, I didn't just, you know, I really made an effort to connect and when she was he was like, veganism isn't a sustainable diet. And she's like, I'm she's like one of the top vegans in the world, written books about it, and she's like, it's not sustainable. And yet she was vegan, and she was keeping her kid vegan. And like, all these signs, like, it all started to be like cognitive dissonance, what the fuck is going on? This doesn't make sense. And then all of the leaders like I worked in that vegan cafe and the guy who owned that dam and amazing guy, deeply researched deeply in integrity, like did so much of the best to make sure he was as ethical as possible. He eventually went back and started like butchering his own animals like literally going to the abattoir because he's that kind of guy. He's like, Well, I realised I have to eat meat because I'm going to I'm getting sick and I didn't want to be healthy and I want to be a part of regenerative cycles within society within the world. So I need to take responsibility and instead of just like eating meat from the market, he went to his local butcher to get his properly raised animals like those are the people and every single one of those leaders that I followed. Ended up reintroducing meat into their diets at the highest level. Again, I'm not condoning factory farming in any way, shape, or form in the same way that I'm not condoning mono cropping I've just like rows of lettuce or rows of almond trees or rows of whatever that single thing is that you think you can eat that you can not have to kill anything for. Like it doesn't work that way. And I'm sorry if that's upsetting for some people to hear. But that's when my truth is now and I've been through it like I'm not just coming at that from like, oh, well, it's just easier to eat meat. And yeah, so that's, that's a big part of it is life eats life. From nature's table no one gets to escape that

Unknown Speaker 1:08:27
and I actually like one of the gifts coming back to Sasa and and how it all works, that when Sasa had disappeared and we were searching for her and was just like, just so heartbreaking and imagining her, you know, dehydrated and slowly dying out in the tundra like I mean, she says stories just break me. At some point in that period, the guys who lived on the farm actually the people whose Sasa was originally their dog on that farm and then she chose me and moved in. It's a whole long story but, but those guys that kids came to us one day with a hook that they had found with a broken wing, and they're like, you know, here's this hook, we found, can you maybe help it and we're like, Well, let's take it to the vet. And this Hawk Dude, it was like the calmest it was like a Zen monk. It was fully conscious. It was looking around blinking its eyes. Just completely calm. Just and I was like, Oh, this thing looks like it's in great shape. Like we'll probably get it there and and then I opened the wing and it was just like shards of bone and ants and it was decaying. It must have been there already for days like and we went to we put it down like we were like this is this is clearly on its way out. Let's just help it along. And you know, and that was the right thing to do. But what that showed me is that truly wild animals truly wild creatures are not afraid of death or pain. Like that animal must have been in so much pain, and it just was like full Zen and I realised in a way that was a gift from the universe showing me that Sasa for sure passed in peace, however that went like that somehow she found it under a bush or wherever and she just went to sleep and she just let it happen. Because she even though she's domesticated like dogs, they still got it. You know, they still know and I have since heard many dogs actually do run away to die when it's that time. But just that story to me of how we try to like romanticise or Disney fie how life works of like, oh, no, you know, the little animals they just want to play with each other. People share these beautiful videos of like an alligator cuddling a deer or something and it's like yeah, cool. Life is crazy. Shit Happens all the time like that. That's not the norm. And that's not like life doesn't care about our like, I just want it to be gentle and sweet. Life eats life from nature's table, and that's how it is. And not only that, but then obviously, the big one is like, I think if I thought that I could be healthy as a plant based eater, that I would still have, like, tried to find a way to make it work somehow regeneratively and sustainably. But I just don't believe that I think that humans need those epic, juicy, Fatty, drifting meaty, like oh, that even when I talk about my boys like, Oh, yes. Like feeling that, that that like rich earthiness? Because it's again what I was talking about earlier, spirituality is not transcending anything. Spirituality is fully being earthed. And here now and I can't think of a better way to fucking be here now than eating a delicious, juicy dripping sizzling steak straight off the BRI like come on.

Unknown Speaker 1:11:39
That is making me very hungry

Unknown Speaker 1:11:44
Well, anyway, so yeah, that's that's my story with plant based and um, and I also see it as a part of this. This sort of, as I said, the romanticising of reality where we can now it's like if you don't feel like you belong in your body. Take these drugs and cut these pieces off and you'll be completely fine. If you don't want to hurt anything. Oh, that's fine. You just eat plants and it's going to be totally okay to eat the Impossible Burger because it's good for the planet. But it's made in factories. It's a complete from start to finish an industrial process. So like there's this idea of, if we continue to surrender our freedom to some parental figure who says that they are going to take care of us. We will continue to sicken and feel isolated and feel overwhelmed and powerless. Because that is dis ease is disconnection from the reality that we are all responsible for our freedom and we are all responsible for owning that fully. And that means that for me to live, something else has to die. And it's not a bad thing. It's just how life works. And I can either do that consciously or that can happen unconsciously. And if it happens unconsciously. It's more than likely going to be super toxic and super poisonous for the planet. So rather do it consciously choose it wisely and show up for it. Which is why like the meat we buy is top quality like it's from the best regenerative agriculture, Epic's sources you know, eventually Yes, I'd like to have my own animals but in this I'm doing the best that I can with where I am right now. And I think that's better than just like checking out and being like, Oh, I don't know, it doesn't matter. I'll just eat whatever.

Unknown Speaker 1:13:22
Yeah. Well, yeah, Nathan, we gonna have to have another answer because many ways of that but thank you so much. This has been such an awesome deep, beautiful chat with you. I really appreciate your time and energy means a lot I know. Certainly myself sensitive individuals. It is it is quite taxing sometimes on the on the nervous system when you when you release when you release energy and you need to recoup a bit so I really appreciate the vulnerability and sharing your story with me it means a lot. Where can people find you if they need to get ahold of you or let's not let's not be like your video that you just posted. In case this gets you hanging in the best?

Unknown Speaker 1:14:09
Like how do you spell main hard? Main word me? Thank you. I mean, thank you for inviting me on Josh and thank you for what you're doing and I just wish you like all the blessings on your path as for all of us all of us just remembering together that we're already free and let's do this thing. Let's dance. And that's actually the easiest place for people to find me it's just dance and I'll be there. No, it's just we are already free.com We are already free.com And that will direct you to the podcast or to my website or wherever somewhere where you'll find me and be able to connect further however you choose. And any I just do make that invitation I am in service to offer one to one intuitive guiding and coaching and narrative transformation like helping with songs and stories and poems and breathwork helping people who are on this journey of transformation of reclaiming sovereignty. So if anyone is listening to this and feels like they could do with some help and support on that path, I'd be honoured the honour to connect with you. And yeah, that you can sign up for a free discovery call at that same link. So just Yeah, reach out find me and let's do this thing. And thank you again, Josh, really lovely speaking with you. Thank you for reaching out. Look forward to the next one.

Unknown Speaker 1:15:27
Thanks, brother. Cheers.

Unknown Speaker 1:15:28
Evening. Evening. Day Evening.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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