Judy Cho on the Carnivore Cure: how a Meat-Based Ketogenic Diet healed her depression and eating disorder (and the role of Organs + Fruit on a carnivore diet)

Judy Cho is board certified in holistic nutrition and a certified nutritional therapy practitioner and the author of Carnivore Cure, Meat-Based Nutrition and the ultimate elimination diet for optimal health. She holds a Psychology and Communications degree, from the University of California, Berkeley. Judy has a private practice, focusing on root-cause healing and gut health with Carnivore Cure’s meat-only elimination diet. Animal-based foods gave Judy a second chance at life and she is passionate to give back, healing the world one steak at a time.

Transcript

00:25 Thanks, Judy. thanks so much for coming on. Really appreciate it.

00:31 Well, thanks for having me.

00:33 Yeah, no, it's good. I've been following your content for a long, long time. I really love your style, and just your whole message that you're sending to the world. And I've read your book. Such good stuff. And I'm really excited to just dive into a topic that I'm really passionate about. And I think you're doing some amazing stuff in the world. So yeah, I really appreciate your time.

00:58 Thank you. I appreciate that.

01:01 So I thought I'd maybe start with your your backstory, and how often fascinated by how people end up

01:11 in the meat-based realm, you know, how do people actually make a design thing? So many people have different stories of how they got there. But

01:20 what how did you end up? You know, be fascinated with the meat based-diet and speaking about it and

01:27 maybe get it from your perspective? Sure.

01:31 So I was plant based for about 12 years, I had occasional fish. So I guess the technical term is that I was pescetarian. On most days, I didn't eat fish, though. So I did a lot of the Boca burgers back then. And a lot of big bowl salad and stuff like that. And, and then in that time, I started struggling with an eating disorder. So behind closed door, sure I lost weight. And people said, Oh, you're so healthy because you're clapping. And behind closed doors I was struggling with Oh, but I'm always hungry. And I want all the fat and other things. And so at night, I would start bingeing. And it just turned into this really, really big monster of a disordered eating, eating disorder. And when I had my first child, everything just kind of came crashing, I ended up in the hospital, I was forced to stop nursing, I was put on psychiatric meds, lots of stuff, I was still using behaviours, still plant based, was trying to nurse my son. And they recommended that I went to an eating disorder intensive facility. So I did that. And I tried all the things they recommended the intuitive eating the mindful eating, trying to just focus on no food is off the limits and moderation is key and, and it worked for bits and my Y was bigger. So my son was a big reason to not use behaviours, but I was still struggling. And in that facility, I remembered that my face was completely honoured. So I didn't want to eat meat, I wasn't asked to me. But if I said I was low carb, because someone else was low carb, I remember that back then. They're like, that's an eating disorder. So they were not allowed to skip the breads, skip the pizzas and things like that. And I think while I was just trying to get better, and then my second son was coming along, I just started looking into nutrition. My psychologist back then said, You were born with like mild depression, you have to take antidepressants for the rest of your life. There's nothing wrong with that. And I believe that so I started taking it, it wasn't really working. Within three months, I was on the highest dose. And I didn't feel like the biggest lows, but I didn't really feel any higher. So my emotions and personality was very muted. And I would still start struggling with eating disorders and ended up finding keto I, that helped a lot. But again, that a little amount of carbs, again, made me triggered me then on bad days that that became a binge. And so I had a friend online that's recommended. There's this crazy diet called a carnivore diet. And why don't we try it because it seems like that little amount of carbohydrates is causing you to struggle every once in a while. So I said, Okay, I don't eat me, but because I did keto, even non meat based as well. And I said screw it, like I want to get healthier. I have two kids now and I need to stop eating behaviours. And so I thought, maybe it's carbs, we're just not on the table, it would be that much easier. And I tried a meat only diet for the thought was just two weeks. And then now it's almost five years, and I'm on zero medication. I do not struggle with depression and I am actually upset that they told me I would have to take antidepressants for the rest of my life that I just had mild depression. I don't struggle with depression whatsoever. Sure, there's days that are lower moods, but it's not at all what I struggled with, and I don't have any Even just sort of behaviour. Sure there's days where in my mind, I'm like, Oh, I kind of ate a lot, maybe I should eat a little less at dinner. But that's the extent of it. It's not what I used to struggle with. And, and so now it would become an advocate. I wanted to understand why did my mental health heal? Why did my physical symptoms? Why do I just feel better eating meat after 12 years, and as I dug into the science, I just got really angry because I learned that everything I knew about nutrition was wrong. limiting thoughts was wrong. And and it took a good 15 years of my life away where I was isolating, self harming and all these things. And now I hope that no one goes through what I went through. And so it's like, become an advocate.

05:46 It's amazing. There's so many different directions, I can scan over that. Yeah, my mom actually, specifically, she's been on Audible now as well, that basically heal arthritis. And she was a vegetarian for 30 years before that anorexic binge binge eating bulimia and things like that. So it's amazing to see just the healing power of it. And I mean, you mentioned you mentioned kids, you mentioned, you know, going keto first. So I think I'm gonna start with the the progression that people go on. So like a lot of people that ask, so to speak. So I give an example, I, in 2014, I was, I was about 90 pounds heavier than I was. And I just decided to lose weight. And I started with a low carb, traditional low carb diet, and lots of new pages and keto foods, as I'm sure you know. And then I sort of progress, progress progress, then I found, you know, Shaun Baker and Joe Rogan, I was like, Hey, this is interesting. Can you try this? That works? You know, one thing leads to another carnivore. So I don't know if you could speak to this progression is a lot of people ask me, so better Latin to just jump into meat based diet for what the standard American diet is? You know, what do you think about that? Is it okay to go your own sort of progression off? Or how, however you want to tackle that question? Sure.

07:20 So the most of my clients are, they're ketogenic or decrease. So I don't think I have a good sense of the general population. But what I would tell you is, it's really hard to go from eating a standard American diet, maybe having 300 grammes of carbohydrates every day to then going ketogenic there. Sometimes it's easier to do a step down approach, meaning that you lower your carbs every week or so. And that will definitely be easier on the body, your body won't have as much of a shock on the system, you're not asking your body to tap into fatty acid stores for energy instead of all of a sudden switching from glycogen to fat. So from a physical perspective, it makes sense. The part I'm struggling is that the emotional side, I know, I could have never done it where I would go, okay, like this week, I'm going to eat 50 grammes less and then the next week because if I was not good at it, I probably wouldn't have ever had an eating disorder, I probably wouldn't have had binge tendencies. So for a lot of my clients that struggle with things like that, to say, well, let's dwindle down your carbs. For some people, that's portress. And that's where I think understanding somebody's mindset is super important, as well as knowing where they come from. Maybe the maybe the approach is what you did is do low carb first where you're minimising as many carbs but still include veggies and eat more real foods. And then you switch to a ketogenic which is a lot more restriction on the carbohydrates. And then maybe you go carnivore, because I think the switch from eating basically everything you can that's labelled as food, and then to go to only meat sounds like such a huge jump. But as you do that progression, you know that parts are less and less and less, and then it becomes Oh, that I just need to cut some of the veggies or seasoning. And then it becomes a lot more palatable, I think from that perspective. But people need to just be very mindful of their personalities where they're coming from their illnesses. My mom, she was diabetic, had all the metabolic syndrome issues. I had her switch from her hide car, birdie lifestyle to keto and she struggled a lot. So even with my care, I stayed with her for two months. I had her transition test blood ketones, but she she was diabetic. So for the first couple weeks, she was sleeping most of the time, and I wasn't as familiar with electrolytes and she did take some salt but maybe she would have done better with that. But she was just really tired. And I wonder if the transition was A little bit slower for her. So maybe 100 grammes to 50. And she never struggled with disordered eating. Maybe it would have been a little easier on her body. But I mean, fast forward time, like yes, she struggled the first month. But now she's keto carnivore for like, three and a half years and no medications, not diabetic. So I don't know, like, what is it better to just put a bandaid in the beginning? Or and just try it and say, I'm going to give it three months? Even if it's hard in the beginning? Or am I a person that needs like a step down approach? Because going all in is quite scary?

10:35 Absolutely, um, you mentioned so many different things, they end the one was mindset, I think, I don't know if it's an Instagram post you did, or something I can't recall. But it depends the type of person you are at the end of the day, because I feel, I feel like I feel like if I had known what I'd known in 2014, what I do now, I probably would have just jumped straight into the new phase where he probably would have made things much smoother. But there was kind of the slide, there was kind of this amazing appreciation, I guess, for the journey, you know, that I had been on. So when I reached that point on going the pace, it really everything just seemed to kick for me if that makes sense. And yeah, you mentioned your you mentioned your kids and things and what I love about your your content and about the user person is that you've got so much skin in the game, you know, you are among you are living a real life, doing real things you didn't even appreciable love to go to Costa Rica and decide to do certain things. That's awesome. You know, it's really an element of realism to what you do. And and that's what I love. So, obviously, being a big family and stuff, I would imagine, you know, things get a bit expensive. Kind of on a budget. How do you how do you budget for Carnival? How do you make it accessible to everyone? The general population?

12:03 Yes. Before I touched that, I just wanted to touch on the abstainer Moderator personality. So I think if the people that are listening and watching to your content, if people understand that the world functions in a moderator type of world where you are not well if you live on the fringes, or you live on the edges, and so everything is about moderation. And that's where I think doing low carb seems more realistic for people where it's like, okay, so I can have a Snickers, but maybe I just have a little less about it. And so understanding that some of us are just not wired that way, though. And that's the thing that I learned along my journey, which has been huge, is I always knew I was extreme, like I was either black or white, or I went to these extremes. And, and I always try to fit myself in this moderator type of world where, okay, I'm going to buy a chocolate bar. And I'm just going to have two pieces everyday. And that's the allocation I made myself. And until I fixed that, then I'm not here. That's what they used to say, in the eating disorder facility. Well, I learned that I'm an abstainer, which means that the amount of the little allotment and making that decision of should I do veggies, or should I do a chocolate is so much harder for somebody like me and the way that I'm wired. Versus if I were to just say, carbs are not on the table. And so it's a non food, and then there's no decision making there. So at night when my body's exhausted, and my mental health is exhausted from making so many decisions throughout the day, saying no, I can't eat this, or I'm going to be healthy. But then by night, where I don't have that power anymore. If I just say carbs are off the table, there's no decision making. And so maybe I have some pork rinds, but even that gets tiring after a while. And it just becomes that you don't want it and when that decision making is not even there, it gives you back the power to say, I'm an abstainer. I don't even looked at carb this food, while I'm now resisting a lot of my binge tendencies. And that's the power for a lot of people with the mental health aspect of a carnivore diet. So I think when it comes to any types of tendencies, habits, addictions, if you are an all or nothing, then that's something really to think about. Because when there's an alcoholic who don't say, well, you're true, you're really healed from your alcoholism, if you have one little drip of alcohol every day. No, like I am not an alcoholic. So if I wanted to have a little bit of alcohol, I know it doesn't affect me. So maybe for me, that's fine. But for somebody that ever struggled with alcoholism, it's not at all normal to say have some everyday and test yourself to see if you're truly healed because then it doesn't work that way doesn't work with our dopamine and and so if you ever have a struggle with food, and relationships and turning to food for comfort and coping, for celebration for anger, then you may actually do better by abstaining. And that's not something that's really talked about in the general audience. So just the tip, in terms of

14:59 and so on. I will, I will, I will add because I'm that just sort of sprang something update, but definitely. And thank you, thank you for saying that because that that was what I actually made when you when you say that and often I actually think that for me certainly as somebody who is attention to carnival going carnival The case was sort of spiritual. And I'll tell you why it's because for the first time in my life, I wasn't I could I could not show my negative emotions with. So it actually allowed the, when I really dived into it full time, this was just before lockdown. And, you know, it's all for Final Four. But it was the first time where I was processing my emotions without food. And it was an amazing experience. I think that's something similar. It's it's really that abstain and moderation mindset. So who are you and what's going to work for you? So? So yeah, so thanks for that. I enjoyed that.

16:00 And that's the power of a carnivore diet as well is what since you don't have food as a source of comfort or a source of numbing, then what right so then you have to dig deeper and realise, oh, I didn't realise I use food to comfort myself to just deal with life. Well, now you're forced to deal with your life and maybe just maybe you'll have a better life because now you're dealing with the real things that are causing some duress in your life. And most people will never realise that if they always have like soon as a drug in their life.

16:36 I couldn't agree more.

16:38 Okay, so in terms of the family, so I do believe in the US at least, if you buy from your local farmer like meaning you really go to the ranch and you get some meat or you get some eggs, they are compensated the most compared to if you buy just from the grocery store, the grocery store still is a collection of all the meats from all the farmers but they don't get as much of the money so that's where I do like to support and from a financial perspective is a lot more economical if I'm trying to buy grass fed grass finished pasteurised, all of those are much more economical when you have someone local now I live in Texas, so there's a lot more ranchers and farmers and maybe somewhere else. So I do have that and so I do a split. Generally we will go to the grocery store and we'll buy meat there. And then we also will get like quarter steer, we'll get the eggs there. It really depends on just convenience, timing and availability, in terms of financial so I went to school in nutritional therapy school and it was all about me to buy grass fed grass finished pasteurised. And I understand that from a I guess an environmental perspective. So if you do regenerative farming, you will support healing the Earth more than let's say a CFO, CFO, but, and then maybe in terms of just the ethical pneus of treating animals. But other than that, just from a nutrient density perspective, there's not really much difference, even the hormone arguments. A lot of those just don't hold weight when you do a lot of the research. So hormones, the levels of oestrogen is really nowhere near what people think compared to like if you ate like a ounce of tofu, for example, the levels of oestrogen. And so our family, sometimes we will buy like the five pound ground beef and it really comes down to about two to $3 a pound. And then if you were to buy like a dozen eggs, and you buy the most conventional, it's maybe $1.50. So a family can absolutely eat that way and remove all the other stuff like you're not really snacking anymore, you're not having all these other like seasonings and figuring out how to make these lavish meals I mean it when it's mostly meat based and you just get to the bare basics. It's actually very, very affordable. And so I think that the average person that lives in standard cares level of food and dietary guidelines, if they were to just switch to just ground beef, eggs, bacon and the meats that they enjoy. And don't worry about the labels just make sure there's not really anything added to the meats you will be far greater in health than if you were to eat just like the standard American diet and adding other things so it's very possible to eat economical we like to buy in bulk we buy when there's a lot of sales so we have a chest freezer in the garage and when a meats on sale when you buy the quarter sphere we will stock up and so when the meat that there's no sales or everything's just kind of getting expensive like like we like lately, we will just you know go into our reserves and and a lot of things that are easy again is that we don't really snack and so We save a lot of money on those things. And we drink mostly water and sparkling water. And so again, that's even economic growth.

20:06 Wow. Yeah, I agree it's been, it's been interesting for myself, because I've just recently moved to Amsterdam, I've been living here for almost all of the ground beef that you buy at the supermarkets have some real preservative in it. It's so strange, and I can taste it, I can taste the difference. So I try and buy local when I can. But yeah, I use he is trying to find that happy medium, you know, when you can buy the grass fed or grain fed or whatever, from local viewers, but also need to think about budgets. So when you can go to the store, get get the sales and all of that good stuff. So I mean, we dived a bit into the budgets and the new face diets. What are your thoughts around, you know, all limbs? One or three minutes? And then I'm going to put those into a you can answer it how you like, because you and I both know, now this, obviously the this debate or controversy within the community, about, you know, whether we need organs when we need foods. So I would love to hear from your perspective, and you can tackle them, however you like. Yeah, it's, it's very, very interesting.

21:24 So what in nutritional therapy, we talked about organs and nutrient density? And so there's no question that organs are the most nutrient dense foods. But it gets a lot more nuanced than that. So as I work with clients, and some of them are doing here, minerals, and basically, that allows you to see the mineral status within your cellular function, not just in your blood. So these markers are a much more, I guess, an average of a, I think it's like three months. And so I started seeing some odd things like I started seeing copper was really high and Chromium is high. And people were starting to see they have joint pain, and they're just not feeling well. And as I dug through it, I ran into grant generous work, which he basically talks about vitamin A toxicity. And I know they go to the opposite end where they say that you don't need vitamin A at all. And I'm not necessary, like I didn't go into that level of research. So I'm not even saying that, I just started looking at the vitamin content. So from my understanding, it's always been that vitamins, fat soluble vitamins always work in balance, they work together. And when you look at the nutrient density of like organ meats, especially beef liver, chicken liver, the level of vitamin A, I think, for three ounces is 500% of your daily value, versus the D and K are not even at 50%. I think it's like 10 20%. So my first thought was like that balance is not even there. So you would be required to eat fish or something that has more vitamin D. But fish like fatty fish, salmon also has vitamin A. So then that was one thing I started looking into. And then when I looked at the copper content for that TV sliver of three ounces, which is about 100 grammes, the copper content is 1000 something percent of your daily value. And it's sort of making sense why started seeing that, and then Chromium is also high on liver. So I started putting everything together. And then I was always doing more research, there's a lot of studies. And I interviewed Dr. Garrett Smith, about vitamin A toxicity, he shares a lot more. So when I first thought this up, people were mad because I am now bringing up this like holy grail of food in the carnivore community. And now I am putting a stigma against it. And so people were upset and, and I knew that they would be but and I was honestly very hesitant of sharing this content, but I knew that it was the right thing to do. So I decided to share it anyway. And and the biggest reason I shared it is because for a young child that's under three, we have tolerable upper limits, where the government says if you eat more than this consistently you can get unwell. And for a child that's under three, if they eat more, if they eat even one ounce of liver, they are risking, they are past that upper limit. And I know for myself with my child I sent him liver Patay which the fat also in the liver cutting makes the vitamin A more absorbable that I knew I was possibly hurting my child. And so I just thought as a service to the community since I was such an advocate of doing chicken liver pet ks and these Taipei's to just get the food in that I should also now tell them my new science and it's just that depending on where you are in your situation with your liver health, and with your young child, maybe you should have a little bit more hesitation with eating these foods. And so I felt that duty just because cuz I bought up eating liver patty and stuff. And I think it's risky for a child under three that their livers not fully developed. And then on top of that, again, one ounce is above the tolerable limit. And then if you're doing it everyday, because you're like, first foods help super healthy, let's feed them all the liver while you're burdening that liver, because the liver has to store any excess fat soluble vitamins. And it's just with all the studies, I know that there were some advocates in the space that said, Oh, that's nonsense. It's only the E. coli very liver and with other things, they also said, it's only with synthetic vitamins. Well, a lot of the studies we cited with Dr. Garrett Smith, and all the studies are listed in the show notes, we shared that it was more than just synthetic vitamins that actually, if you took some type of retinol medication, if you took Accutane, if you eat these vitamin A's, even if you get it from beta carotene from carrots, and you're eating with that all of these end up in the body converting to vitamin E in one form or another, your body is not going to know that if it's a vitamin A synthetic form versus the form that's in foods. And a lot of the vitamin A in the supplements are the animal based forms. So again, it was just I, the part that was a little shocking to me was I understand the average person being upset because this is a, you know, a whole food, it's real, how can you say that there is a risk of sometimes over eating these things. But when some of the advocates went against it, that was a part that I didn't understand, because you just shared the studies, we shared all this stuff. And they were upset. And you know, I know that that some of these people have financial reasons for that. But maybe they and so my logic was maybe they just really believe that it's just the synthetic vitamins, I don't know. But I just think that all my goal was was so that people would be concerned about eating too much liver. And I do believe in our biofeedback, I believe that our bodies have any wisdom, but you smell something wrong, your body's going to have this scowl on your face, your stomach kind of feels weird. When you eat too much liver, you might be able to feel that and that's a really good thing. But when we start taking supplements and liver chips and other ways that bypass our body's innate wisdom, that's where it gets kind of scary. So when we sprinkle it into our child eggs, and they don't realise it's there, it's just how do we know the harm that we're doing when he can't really tell liver health unless you do a biopsy. And how many people are going to do that, if you check your vitamin A in blood, it's not a good measure, because again, it's in the liver. And the only way again, is going to do a biopsy. So I think what's happened in the past year, though, is since it's been about a year since I shared it, I've heard some of the advocates, when it first came out said there's no limit that you have, you can consume or didn't use. And now I heard him say, or some of the people say, you should limit it to maybe four ounces. And then I've heard too and supposedly now they're saying half. So I'm like good like, as long as like, I don't care whether I get the credit or if I bought VASHAUN for that. As long as there's a little bit of a hesitation that people aren't like you're not feeling better on carnivore liver harder, do more organ meats. As long as that's not the mantra, then what I wanted was my, my goal has succeeded. It's just maybe it is the liver. And that's all I wanted for the community is you figure out your own situation, if you came to the carnivore diet was for liver health, it's probably not a good idea to be eating that much vitamin A, if you've taken vitamin A retinoids retinol Accutane in the past, a lot of the vitamin E is likely stored in your system, if you ate a lot of carrots and sweet potatoes and a lot of beta carotene from plant based foods. And then you're trying to now eat vitamin A like two three ounce or liver to three ounces a day is probably not a good idea. And maybe in the future as you're eating carnivore long term and your liver is super healthy. Maybe you can enjoy it on occasion have it in your pets. But I think it was really, really critical to bring this up. So that so that's just the vitamin part. And then recently, I started noticing with some of my clients that they were getting gout slurs, even on a carnivore diet. So then I started looking into that. And Gout is primarily triggered from fructose hearings and then alcohol. So alcohol and fructose pretty much breakdown the same one in the body. And then purines are the other one. So that's why a lot of doctors will say don't eat red meat, red meat have a lot of hearings, it causes gout. Well, yeah, the real issue is fructose. So it's the fructose that's in high fructose corn syrup, and it's what's in honey and it wasn't fruits. Now I know that we all think that's just super healthy and it can be in moderation. Maybe once a day, but when you are eating mostly meats and then adding a lot of fruits or honey then it becomes a little bit of a concern. So I just brought up that pickerings can behind ready Eat. So if you look at the actual period list of red meat, steaks, chicken, pork, none of those are super high, the muscle meats aren't that high, where it gets high, are delivered the organ meats, and there's some and I'm about to release a graphic suit that will show the different organs that have most attorneys. They are like four times the amount per serving then muscle meat. So if you struggle with gout, or you struggle with love, liver or kidney imbalances, and they're not functioning really well, you want to be careful of the Korean content. And unfortunately, this also confirmed

30:38 it also affects sardine so sardines are also hiring parents. So if you think about these foods, and then you're adding fructose you're adding, you're basically really stimulating that uric acid cycle and it's the uric acid cycle that then triggers gout. So if you struggle with any kidney imbalances, liver imbalances, you want to be careful with the content of periods in your diet. And you also want to be mindful of the fructose. And so I interviewed Dr. Richard Johnson not too long ago. And we talked about fructose. And when he first said, fruits are healthy, that's fine. And I said, really? Is it healthy, like if you have a lots of grapes, lots of raisins. And if you were to just say, that's your primary carbohydrate source, that you're always having some steak with liver and adding the honey and a little bit of fruit at the end? And then he said, Yeah, that can actually make the load higher. So I think the recommendation is about 20 grammes of fructose a day, well, eating one mango would bypass that level already. So that's where you just have to be really mindful of the level of fruit, maybe an apple with the skim on the fibre protecting you from the fructose load, not that the food actually beneficial, that may help you but then if you're also adding the high level of periods, it's just exacerbates that cycle. And a lot of Dr. David Perlmutter his new work, Dr. Richard Johnson, they talk about how a lot of that uric acid cycle that we don't really look at. But if you get your bloodwork done, and you get your uric acid marker, and if it's above maybe 678, and depending on context, that is another big indicator of metabolic syndrome. And it's just the fact that organ meats with their high period content, maybe some uncertainties, and then adding fructose, so all types of fruit, honey is more fructose and glucose, and then even glucose can break down also into fructose as well. But if you eat these foods, Andrew uric acid levels are going up, and you are doing harm or you're risking the chances of getting more metabolic syndrome. So that's where now there's so much more content about the organ meats just than the hypervitaminosis. It's also that there's a lot of curing and if you struggle from gout again, and if you have hyper Yersinia, you probably want to reduce those as they're probably contributing to obesity, and metabolic syndrome and insulin resistance.

33:08 But yeah, definitely. And I notice specifically when I was sort of being a bit about any experiment myself, I'm very active I trained a few CrossFit like six times a week. And I just thought I'd give it a go and I wear my aura ring. And and I notice in the mornings, my aura ring, I couldn't get it off my finger was the best. My fingers were probably like sweating. Yeah, just from the honey. I couldn't believe it. And I think I've found quite a happy medium now with with my with my I don't do honey, I do occasionally have like, a little bit of berries for desserts or a little bit of aggro. But I suppose you've always said it all along. It's like, context matters. I think some people will look at certain people, certain advocates in the community. And they're like, oh, no, let me latch on to this health period and do exactly what they do. Even if I'm not feeling good. Let me do a day because they must be doing something right because they look, you know, they look good. They spending all day doing doing supplies, but I'm not so sure it's something that they something they do use right. Even that goes back to what you were saying about the organs and things aside, we have this innate wisdom within within us. And I notice when I eat, you eat chicken livers eat too much. You very quickly get as weird metallic taste in your mouth. It's hard to describe. It's like your body just saying. He's open anymore, like my body. And then, you know, it kind of reminds me as a kid. You know, the reason why we didn't like innovation was is because kids had that innate wisdom within it, but they don't want to eat vegetables because clearly your body just doesn't want to have to do anything. thing to do with that. So, yeah, I think there's so much.

35:04 Yeah. And one thing I'll say is, so whenever about brought up that argument about the vegetables or the young kids and don't think other people will say, Well, kids love sugar, does that mean that we should be giving them sugar? And I think that's from an evolutionary perspective, sugar is the most easiest form of energy, it gives you that immediate energy. And so I think that's why we like sugar, right? It not only hits our neurotransmitters, but also, if from a survival perspective, it's going to let us survive one extra day. And so I think that's why kids tend to really like sugar. It's not that they're meant to be eating that much sugar. Yeah, I think with the organ meats and the fruit, it's the, the biggest thing I've noticed is that a lot of these advocates, they've never really been sick, like they've never really been sick, and they don't work with individual patients. So it's hard for them to really get a pulse on what really happens. And what are the ramifications of their advice, right? If we have people that talk to us through social media, most people will share back to us what we want to hear, right. So as a person on the internet, I may put out some content, and someone will say, Oh, my gosh, I feel the same way. And so to me, that's validating level care without the content. But that's like maybe 10 people compared to 1000s of people that just don't respond, or the people that it didn't work for that will say, I'm just going to move on, and they don't talk to you about it. And so we live in a very siloed experience online. And so we think that's reality. And your reality check is when you start working with individuals in a clinical setting that you hear, and I tried to honey, I try the cards at night, and I don't feel as good. And then everything you believe through evidence based research through your books through all that other good stuff, you get challenged because you meet clients, and patients that really challenge your thinking. And you realise, okay, there are actually exceptions to this, right. And that's when you start digging into other areas. And that's how I found organs. Otherwise, I would probably still be singing my first book is all about us to be origins and why so good for you. And I mean, I have to change that part of my book, because that's not where I stand anymore. And a big reason is because my clients weren't feeling well. And I had to go search. Why, like, I know that this meat only carnivore diet is so powerful. Why are my clients feeling worse, and when I noticed the Gout with the periods, or the fact that, that maybe they're having too much food after their meals, and they're not as active as you right, so for them, maybe that's the berries, the dose was to my train. And, and then in terms of the liver, it's just not always eat more liver, there's just, there's nuances and complex for each person. And, and we didn't have that in our space. And that's where I just wanted people to understand, it's not even about hypervitaminosis A, it's about everything, we can over nutrient nutrition, it's an absolute thing, there are certain colorable upper limits for vitamins and minerals. And some of them, they don't have it, like there's some, I think it's some B vitamins, I can't remember, I might have been potassium as well, but they don't have upper limits. So maybe those are a little bit safer. But most nutrients have upper limits, meaning that the the, the scientific world has determined that in excess of this consistently, you can actually get sick, and vitamin E is one of them. And there's again, a lot of studies that show that and then now with the Pieris a carnivore person will generally eat a lot more pairings than the average person. And then when you also then add ordinates then absolute, you may just the in the biggest way people will know is if they feel that they're regressing or stalling on a carnivore diet. And it's the best thing to do is try and test your own body.

38:54 Yeah, absolutely. And I actually think that's a great segue to I'm gonna say electrolytes. reason I'm saying this because I know I messaged you a few months ago I really want to have you on but I know you're having a social media breaks. Appreciate that. Maybe we can get into that at the end. But you said something which which actually prompted me to do what I did. He said, maybe you are playing napkins with your electrolytes and your supplements and things like that. Because at the time when I had started carnivore, I hadn't. I had firmly in my head. I was good constipated. For the first time in my life. I was losing weight instead of putting on weight which has never happened to me and that's part of the reason why I raised some funds. And in my mind, I was like okay, now I have to have magnesium. So I was having I was having magnesium citrate in the morning and magnesium bicarbonate in the evening. I was mixing it up. I was mashing it up and I was just having a lot of magnesium. And I just I still wasn't feeling it. Good luck. I wasn't sleeping well, about a project. I cut out organs definitely made a difference. I also had my hair mineral analysis done my copper was like through the roof. But I threw your advice actually, I was like, Okay, let me just let me just come up magnesium and the woven in, you know, my body fibres getting our resin constipated. But what are your thoughts on that on pain that kindess electrolytes? IV on its acrobats?

40:36 Yeah. So minerals are really finely balanced in our system, it's true that our food are so whether in our soil, so whether it's the cow that's eating the grass, or whether it's the plants that we're you know, crop harvesting, all of them are lower in minerals than they used to be. So in some aspects, we may need to doing a hair mineral test is obviously a good sense of figuring out what may be imbalanced. But generally, I do see that, you know, magnesium has become this Godsend recently, and I feel like vitamin D as well, and, but the main minerals are calcium, magnesium, potassium, and sodium. And so those four really need to be in balance. And, yes, our food affects the balances, but a lot that affects it is our stress levels. So when we are stressed, we will start losing our potassium. When our potassium starts dropping, the sodium tries to balance that out, when the sodium and potassium are both dropping, then magnesium and calcium start in balancing to so you start bleeding out more magnesium, and then your calcium, if you're really stressed, and you're like building up this internal wall of I need to get things done, and I'm just going to run 100 miles an hour, then your calcium may be really, really high. And you just if you think about, like scum on the water of the windows, and it's like this calcium buildup, that's kind of what's happening inside our bodies with a lot of that stress, if you see your calcium rolling on that hair mineral test. So if we understand that minerals all need to be in fine balance, and when they're not imbalanced. Minerals are spark plugs into our body. So we require them to have activation of things in the body. And so they're really, really important. But a lot of vitamins especially, or a lot of supplements, especially if they're you know, just from the grocery store, let's say and it's like a quality, you don't know what type of like you said magnesium glycinate, or magnesium or magnesium citrate versus glycinate versus bicarbonate, they all function slightly differently. And your body may not tolerate it as much. You don't know what time you're absorbing more than the other. But we are, like you said, playing Mad Chemist and just constantly taking the same. But it's like our sleep our diet, our hunger is not the same every day. So how do we know that our minerals should be the same every day. And then the biggest thing I don't like is when people just supplement magnesium Because oftentimes, it's a lot of other things. When I do a lot of experimental tests, I'd say only half of them I would recommend supplementing magnesium. And I firstly use topical magnesium spray since it absorbs better through the body. And sometimes it's just they need a little bit more potassium. Or sometimes they need just a little bit more like saline water, which is unrefined salts. And when you soak it, the minerals are a little bit more unbound. So it's like trace minerals, and you just drink a little bit of that. So that's where I normally have people start is just do a little bit of salt water in the morning and see how they feel if they are getting like the leg cramps, on the chest beating the heart beating, the heart pops, and they're like muscles still kind of having maybe they need a little bit more of the magnesium, potassium, and you want to maybe you can try some of the basic electrolytes that has their own balance. If that doesn't make you feel well then I would consider a hair mineral test. But sometimes it's not even electrolytes, it could just be that you might need more omega threes, it might be something else. And so that's where I think again on the internet. You know, we we follow people that are really healthy. And so we think that their advocates, patient is what's right for us, but they're not metabolically unbalanced. Maybe their stress levels are different than and maybe their minerals are different. Or even if you are really in tune with the hair mineral test, maybe they're a different type of oxidizer than us, right. So maybe they burned through minerals way faster than me who burns through and slower. So that's where the I guess wellness online becomes difficult because it's everything is very nuanced. Everything really is it depends. So there are some people that really need magnesium, right? Without magnesium, you can have a heart attack, but it's in context. So if you only use magnesium then you could deplete yourself of the other factor minerals. And when your body has less of a named mineral and even the micro minerals like the trace minerals of boron and other types of minerals, your body Then use some of the heavy metals, if they're the same weight and size to do some of that sparkplug action. So it may intentionally hold on to some heavy metals to balance because you're missing some type of good mineral that your body needs. And so that's where, even from a heavy metal perspective, I kind of like to balance the other minerals first, before even thinking of detoxing heavy metals, because they might just be there because your body has to use them. And think of this trace. Think of the table of elements. All minerals are on a level, and it's like based on weight and size. And so you can see how, for example, if we're deficient in iodine, we might just be holding more bromide and chloride because they're all on the same table of elements. And so it's just all these nuanced things. And we don't put we hear and mining is good. So let's magnesium harder, right, but it's not always the case.

45:55 Yeah, definitely. And I know you mentioned the, the soul works. Which I don't I don't I so I'm pretty lazy. I just wake up and I'll put some table to some just really thin integrating salt and water in the morning. And I trinkets like, Is that fine? And so yeah,

46:16 I think it's fine to if you feel fine, then I wouldn't worry about it. But the reason why I like having the so they water is like if you just had a big jar, and you made it one time, so maybe you put half a cup of like the Himalayan salt in there, and you just filled it with water. And then every morning, instead of having the salt, just use a tablespoon of that water and put it in your regular water. Why I like that is because a lot of the trace minerals are a lot more unbound when you're consuming it. Versus when you're eating the salt with some of the minerals in it as it goes through your digestive process. If it doesn't unbind then you are not absorbing it. So that's the reason.

46:55 Okay, thanks. That's actually super helpful. I really want to try that. And then I mean, I want to be respectful of your time. This has been so much fun I thought in with recently, I mean, you spoke to embora have a podcast. And you're talking about, you know, ownership plus consistency. I love that because this is a it's a long term, you know, probably decades to damage yourself. And it's not going to things often happen overnight. I don't know if you can maybe end on my thought because I love that. Yeah.

47:31 Yeah. So I think the blessing of me struggling with the mental health aspect of illness really helps me to understand that a lot of times we judge a person by their outside, right, so if someone's thin enough, then we're like, oh, they're they're healthy. They're doing everything, right. But I struggled with an eating disorder behind closed doors, and it was very, very hard and dark. And then when you see someone obese, if they're eating something unhealthy, they're like, Yeah, that's why they're unhealthy. Right? And, and the thing is, there's a lot more to a person than how they look outside. So that's one. But what we want to do is, if we understand that aspect, that we can't just judge by the outside cover, then when we are also taking advice online, I mean, we are living in a period where there is so much free content, and so many people that are experts and advocates for things, and the more people are popular in terms of follower count, they seem more convincing. And the thing is to do well, on social media, you have to have a little bit of entertainment, you can be a great actor. And so just because someone has followers or they're influential does not mean that that answer is right for you. So if you decide to follow a path,

48:50 generally understand the diet, do a little bit of that research in advance, don't just say the next day, I'm going to start a carnivore diet, because that gets really difficult. Instead of your environment, find the meats that you enjoy, do the things that you are mentally and emotionally ready to get started. And then once you get started, I think sometimes it's better to not listen to a lot of nutritional content. And I know that's like what I do that kind of stuff. But the reason is because there's always someone selling something, whether it's figuratively or really selling, but it becomes a lot and it's in your moments where you're not feeling well. You're going to think oh my gosh, I do need carbs for thyroid. I do need this for something healthy. And that's why I'm not feeling well. And then those little thoughts become chatter in our head. We have like 60,000 thoughts in our head. We might know maybe 10% of it. And but that negativity it stays. And then when we're struggling, we lean on those things to basically self sabotage. Right? So we may try the honey we may try the fruits. And then we say, well, I feel better even if it's an hour I feel better honey shirts a stimulant right? like drug is a stimulant to caffeine is a stimulant. But what if in three months, you realise, oh man, this was a long route, what if you just didn't listen to some of that content, and you just stuck through the three months. And for most people eating in sufficient calories, eating enough fat on their carnivore diet, or meat only diet, and then if you want to add some veggies, I'm totally supportive of that. Then if you feel better than it was good that you don't have to go through these other journeys. I think, taking ownership of just don't loosely take in information, it's really easy to get sucked in. Right lately, through the pandemic, we all know that there are so many different sides to who was right with the science of the vaccine or the pandemic and all the other things. Well, we know now that depending on which scientists you follow, they will have the right answer. And so if you know that then in terms of Diet and Wellness, that people will always have a different answer as well, depending on who you're following. So if you know your sort of diet, and things aren't working, maybe you want to look that up. But otherwise, just enjoy your life. Have the community that you know, will support you get through this, focus on having a safe environment, meaning maybe no junk food in your house for a while until you can pass this hurdle. Maybe you say I'm not going to go to happy hours for a little bit. But the golden is taking ownership saying, I'm not going to listen to people that may make me stumble for now, I may have to go out less for now. And I really want to dig in because I want to change my life because I know how my life feels right now. And I know how unwell I am and I'm happy. But I want to change that. So if carnivore meat on the B or some other diet is my ticket to that I'm going to go all in and give yourself that grace of it may not be perfect, but be consistent. Not once a week. It's okay, this isn't working. Maybe meat isn't good for me. And then that self doubt, I'm telling you guys, it's it is what causes so many people to fall, those thoughts that we don't think are pervasive once we hear it. And once we start doubting the diet, and when the guy gets hard with all diets, they're hard. The easiest thing people are gonna say is Yeah, your diet, like that's a crazy diet, and then it's easy to fall off. And then you realise Well, my old guy couldn't work now too, and you're struggling again and you're back at square one. And all you're doing is like spinning your wheels and the first week or two or month of carnivore. But if you just were to stay consistent, eat the meat you want don't care if it's bacon all the time and eggs that's that's still very nutritious. And and then you can explore further as you progress. But it's just figuring out what will allow you to stay consistent and take ownership because no one cares about your health as much as you

52:44 Yeah, I couldn't have been better even if I tried. Thank you so much for your time. I really, really appreciate it. And so much so much value in the conversation. Yeah, I know you're busy person, so I appreciate it. Well, thank

52:58 you for having married during this conversation. Thank you so much God for my son